Episode 4
Seán Doyle
Director, Experiential Marketing at Pinterest
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING’:
Our guest on this episode is the brilliant Seán Doyle. Seán has worked in the events industry for 20 years with a career path that includes working, agency side, with some of the worlds biggest brands including Instagram, Facebook and PlayStation.
Seán is currently Director of Experiential Marketing at Pinterest, leading a global team with responsibility for brand experiences across advertiser, creator and consumer audiences.
Seán believes that life is an adventure to follow your dreams and make it fun wherever you can and if you’re not having fun it’s time to choose a new adventure.
Watch Seàn on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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Dear SD from 2003,
Greetings from the future.
Right now everything feels a little scary. You’re pretty sure that decision you just made was a bad one. You think it will affect you for the rest of your life. It will. But not in the way you’re expecting. Spoiler alert; things work out way better than you imagined.
Pick up the phone and call that intense sales dude back. Tell him why he should hire you. It might not be the career for you but it’s the first step from which things will domino. They will eventually stop talking to you about football - and when you open up and put yourself out there, you’ll discover a whole world of opportunities you didn’t even know existed.
Meet everyone, Go to everything. The network and knowledge you gain over the next few years will eventually turn into your superpower. But whilst you’re busy saying yes to everything, try to remember it’s also ok to say no sometimes too.
You are good enough to work for that company, client or team, so go for it and just be prepared to work hard to prove it. The cliché is true; you can and do create your own destiny.
In 20 years time you’ll be asked to write this letter and you’ll wish you’d kept a diary. But in the process you’ll realise you did in fact land that dream gig on more than one occasion. You’ll get the chance to travel the world, and you’ll have opportunities to learn from some of the most talented and generous people there are. You’ll get to build brands, experiences and teams that you love. Remember those who gave you a shot and try to be that person for others too.
It all sounds kinda like fun right? It is. It’s ok to love your work but you should know that you’re better at everything when there's more to you than just your job.
In those moments when you don’t love your work, you probably strayed too far away from your passion, even if you appear to be succeeding. Luckily the solutions are simple - get back to your creative core, find inspiration in the real world, learn.
You don’t have a grand plan but that’s ok and by the way, that may never change. Know this; adventure awaits. Follow your dreams and choose to make it fun wherever you can. If you’re not having fun, it’s time to choose a new adventure.
SD from 2023
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Max Fellows: Hi Seán, and welcome.
Seán Doyle: Yeah, thanks for having me and congratulations on the podcast, longtime listener, first-time caller, pretty excited to be here. So, yeah, I'm Seán, I am Director of Experiential Marketing at Pinterest. Like you said, Pinterest, as I'm sure many of your listeners in the event industry will know, is the world's inspiration app. It's a place for people to find billions of the world's best ideas and plan their dreams into reality essentially. So, join Pinterest nearly four years ago now, as an event marketing lead for Europe as the business is starting to scale outside of the US. And now I am leading a global team across the UK, Ireland and the US. And yeah, prior to that, I had a long time in agencies, that's obviously Max. You all know we had a couple of great years later together which I'm sure will touch on. And, yeah, that's me. What else do you want to know?
Mel Noakes: So Seán, we cannot wait to dig into all of this and so much to talk about. I guess, the first question is, how did you find writing that letter to yourself? There's quite an experience to go back 20 years.
Seán Doyle: It definitely is. Yeah, can I ask that you review what RuPaul's Drag Race.
Mel Noakes: Yes.
Max Fellows: I have. Well, Pete has been recommending it at some time but I've yeah, I've watched a bit, why?
Seán Doyle: Okay. I just wondered if there was any inspiration there because the final episode of Drag Race basically, RuPaul asks the finals queens to like to talk to a picture of themselves as the child and it's like the most emotive thing, I'm always like in tears.
Max Fellows: Okay.
Seán Doyle: Yeah. So, I was kind of like that reminded me of that when I did, was like great, I’m never gonna go on drag race.
Max Fellows: Hang on. Now, we know where the inspiration originally came from. I thought it was a great idea from us, but Pete exceeded it from drag race.
Seán Doyle: 100%. How was the experience? It was therapeutic. I will say and I’ll say eventually I enjoyed it. I probably procrastinated on it for quite a long time. I was like do I really want to say all these things about myself, like talk to myself at that stage but I found it really interesting, like that time going back specifically 20 years of my life, like 18, when I was 18 years old. Was like a really pivotal moment for me and it actually was the moment I kind of accidentally fell into the event industry, so I was very unsure of myself, I suppose. I really didn't have a big plan. I didn't even know what experiential marketing was, I suppose. So yeah. It was fascinating and actually I kind of came away from it thinking, I wish I had spent more time looking back and more regularly. There was one moment that I was really proud of and also just reminded me of a lot of moments, a lot of people. Reminded me to reach out to people who I had not spoken to in ages. So, yeah, it was actually quite an enjoyable experience in the end.
Max Fellows: Amazing. That's really good to hear. And I think that it's only when that reflection back as you realize just quiet how far you've come and that Journey has been, a lot of it very different to what you'd once thought about. But you know what an incredible journey in itself.
So just going back to prior to that 18, 19 years then, and just as a bit of a surprise precursors of incredible career, that's then kind of ensued. What was Seán like kind of growing up and what was kind of family and schooling like for you?
Seán Doyle: Yeah. So, it’s pretty normal kid, I think. I grew up just outside Redding in a very fascinating town called Bracknell, famous for its indoor/outdoor, fake ski slope, and it's amazing Coral Reef water park, which was the best Reef water park ever. Yeah. I went to school in Redding. Yeah, I guess, I was liked in school. I mean, I was into Math, Business studies, etc. Makes me sound like a real geek, but I didn't think I was, I kind of turned into a bit of a kind of golf/punk in my teenage years. I got suspended from school for dying my hair blue.
Mel Noakes: I love that you’re a rebel even as a kid.
Seán Doyle: I think like the teenage years. But yeah, my family were publicans, actually. And obviously, I've listened to SJ’s episode recently and I know that she had a kind of similar upbringing with her parents. They’re Irish family, they were kind of like the typical Irish landlord and landlady of pubs really and they ran pubs in the southeast of England before and after I was born, and they took a bit of a break while I was at school, trying to aim towards a bit more of a work-life balance, I think, which I'm not sure they ever really achieved. They were both kind of obsessed with work, really. And my dad started a plumbing business. My mom was running the service station for Shell. And then when I was 17, we decided to move to Ireland. And really that was like to follow my dad's dream of moving back home, I suppose, and they bought this Village Pub, it's kind of derelict building, it wasn't just the Village Pub. It was also the Village shop, the petrol station, the post office and it was in the village that my mum had grown up in and that was a real adventure. So, the three of us packed up and moved there. We spent four months, I guess, working day and night to refurb this building, including the home we were living in, and you know the villagers, the family, everyone kind of like chipped in to build this business from a carving. This bespoke bar to laying this like floor with local tiles, etc. It was really an adventure and then I probably spent another six months there as the business opened, working there full-time. Like getting off the ground. And then, yeah, I moved back to the UK when I was 18, which brings us to around about the letter time I suppose.
Max Fellows: And when kind of in that hospital environment, the kind of the Republican. How did that shape you, I suppose? As an individual, one would think almost, because you've got people in around you all the time, is to really kind of carve out of social side and almost kind of interpersonal skills develop their, what was that like and how do you say that shaped you?
Seán Doyle: 100%. My parents were, like I said, it's kind of like typical publicans. I loved holding core, always up for a good chat, a good conversation. Always up for a bit of fun, a bit of a laugh, etc. But really like every night you were creating experiences in that part. Especially when we opened, there was a lot of music in there, it was just like the heart of the community, really. And I think that definitely did shape me and how I approach things and the way that I work with people and that kind of fun element I like to bring to my work and to teams etc. I think my parents, also outside of that world, are actually quite creative people, which I think I got a bit of that from them too. So, my mum loves to write poetry. For example, my dad, you know, he was a bit of a dream about how he used to love to draw. He was a good drawer or what have you. So, I got a bit of that creative side. I also think about the social side but then the entrepreneurial spirit as well.
Mel Noakes: You talk about that in your letter actually this sort of marriage of creativity but also business and the need to have both to really fulfill your passion.
Seán Doyle: 100%. Yeah, I actually do think that like, you know, events and creating experiences is kind of like that perfect match for me because yes, I love the creative process, I love ideation, I love working with fellow creatives and seeing things brought to life, but it has to be effective. I think for me, otherwise, I kind of lose interest in it, like if it's not driving impact one way or another. And I think, you know, brand experiences as you all know, and your listeners will now really have the opportunity to drive the impact for businesses.
Mel Noakes: So, you talked a little bit about your university days and some of the big decisions and we've talked a little bit before coming on, you know, that career path for you, wasn't a rosy, yellow brick road to Pinterest at all. So, tell us a little bit about your university experience and some of the decisions you had to make that led you here.
Seán Doyle: Yeah. Well, first of all, just to be clear, I didn't actually end up going to university, but what I was alluding to in the letter which is a little bit cryptic around this like decision I was making that I was kind of like regretting. It was a college course, I was doing pre-university because, like I mentioned at that age of 17, I'd left. So, it hadn't finished the second year of my A levels. So, it's basically doing this kind of TV and radio journalism course in Amation, with a view to then go on to university and I guess I'd always thought I would do that. And, you know, then I probably go into the traditional gap year traveling. And I was just kind of like what I thought I would do like all of my mates were doing etc., But I had left Ireland, and I had moved back to England, I was living on my own. I was living with like a shared house, etc., but I'd kind of like really trying to be independent and like I was like saying to my family I can do this etc., I think I was struggling with that more than I thought. And the college thing, at the time, I guess, I couldn't really put my finger on it. I just wasn't loving it. Honestly, I just wasn't enjoying it and I didn't think it was that worthwhile. I'd kind of just had this like urged that I felt like I'd rather be working. And you know, I was also working on the side just to, you know, Pub and what have you. And even that I was just like I actually rather be there, like I'm getting more out of that, then I feel like I am here and then this thought of like doing this for another several years, I was just like really not into it. So, over the Christmas of that year, I kind of made the decision that I wasn't going to go back but I never really committed that that was it and that was the line. I wasn't going to go back and go to universities; I was like maybe it's just not right for now. And I kind of had that story for quite a long time that I was going to go back and do that, I was going to go back to university and maybe I'll just be a mature student or what have you. And I never did, because they fell into work, which we can get onto and I loved it, but it definitely was something I felt like hungover me for a long time. I felt like am I going to regret this? Am I going to be held back because I didn't get a degree? And you know, you see in the end of the letter I no longer regret it. But I think it's like, even the words like when people would just kind of expect you to go university, oh, what universities did you go to, or what did you study? I used to kind of almost like feel ashamed of saying I didn’t but as I kind of grew, I suppose, in my career what have you, I actually ended up becoming quite proud that I had got to where I had without that, taking that path, I suppose.
Max Fellows: Completely resonate and think we know; we took kind of path similar to that. As oppose, for me there's elements of it, the social side perhaps and the connections and things that I missed for you, when in that period of several years after, not regretting that season, but that hangover that you mentioned. What is it about the uni thing that you thought you needed or perhaps was the missing piece to you at the time?
Seán Doyle: I think for me it wasn't the social piece honestly because I feel like I did live that part. I lived in.
Max Fellows: Very successfully.
Seán Doyle: And yeah, I lived in student houses and all of that, I think it was the validation that like you, someone had given you something to say that you were qualified to do that, and you had professionally been trained to do something, I suppose, just probably what it was.
Max Fellows: Yeah.
Seán Doyle: Like, you know, I guess, it's like how long does it take for this phrase to come out when someone's having a conversation these days? But bit of imposter syndrome, I suppose, you know.
Max Fellows: A bit of the seal of approval of sorts that you can do that, or you've been kind of.
Seán Doyle: Absolutely.
Max Fellows: Stamped that you can.
Seán Doyle: Yeah. I will say that my sister, we're really close in age and what have you, she did go to university. She's just like one year ahead of me in school, she was like, actually the person who would constantly say to me, like she was going through that, you know, she was going through the university thing, the typical thing and she was very much like, I guess, so admiring of the path I had taken, and she was really like a champion for me and building me up and like, telling me how proud she was of me, etc. Yeah, it's good to surround yourself with people like that.
Max Fellows: Yeah, definitely. Do you feel during that period or perhaps those kind of late teens, early twenties, you may have imposter syndrome? There was a kind of a confidence thing and a self-belief or do you think that's just a part of that finding yourself in the career kind of that came forward.
Seán Doyle: There definitely was. And honestly, I think I still have that, to be honest. So, there was that piece of it around the whole University thing. And then I mean, like candidly, I kind of struggled to feel like I'd express myself in a certain way because I'd entered this world that kind of just felt very heterosexual masculine, I suppose, and I would kind of avoid situations where I will be in a room where somebody asked me about my girlfriend or something, even though outside of work, I was like happily had a boyfriend and my friends knew, my family knew I was out etc. But I kind of had this weird situation in work, especially as I got more senior or even dealing with like senior clients or what have you back in the day. A lot of them used to be men in suits, going to the golf club, or whatever, that I would be embarrassed to say that. So, that was also another kind of self-confidence thing. And that's another thing I alluded to in my letter which was like when you actually just finally just open up and be yourself. You are just so much more and people, of course, they accept you, and even sounds ridiculous saying it now because the world has moved on thankfully.
Mel Noakes: But that time it's such a unique stage, isn't it? Those early teen years and early twenties and for you being away from your family. And in that environment, it must have taken quite a lot. So, what things do you think you pulled on at that time as you were going through that Journey, that really helped pull you through? Because there will be other people listening to this, they may well be in the same situation.
Seán Doyle: Yeah, good question. And I mean, I think the reality is, you know, just realizing that when you are yourself, first of all, like it always works out better and you feel better and people accept you and actually even more because you're being more yourself, and then you've got this, like less of this barrier, I suppose. So, I would just encourage people to be themselves. I feel like in the working world, like Max you might be surprised to hear this because we work together, and you probably felt like when I was working with you at Clive, I was very much myself, but I actually feel like I'm more myself now than I've ever been in the workplace. And, you know, one of the things that I ended up kind of falling into when I went to Pinterest is this like co presidency role of like LGBTQ community. And then like, actually like publicly I suppose or publicly but internally, like representing that part of me and supporting other people in the same situation in the business. And yeah, I guess it kind of like never made me. I've never felt prouder I suppose and then that I feel Just more able to express myself, I might feel like my creativity is more, I can be more direct. So, yeah, I would just encourage people to, you know, find people that champion you and just try and be yourself because people will accept you and you will be happier and do better work, I think.
Max Fellows: It's tricky, isn't it? That that whole kind of being yourself piece because it's a very much around, it's who you're around and feel most comfortable with. But in a commercial working environment, you’re kind of almost don't get to necessarily choose who that is versus your personal life instead.
Seán Doyle: Totally.
Max Doyle: So, when was it for you then that you could because if you earlier kind of career in hospitality Keith prowess and so on so forth, you know you mentioned your letter. What were those kind of earlier stages like and how did that shape you and is there a key or pivotal moment that things clicked more so for you?
Seán Doyle: Yeah, so the Keith prowess job was after I had just made a decision to quit college. I applied for this role. I honestly didn't even know what it meant to be hospitality executive was and people probably listening wouldn't know what that is either, but it was basically a sales job selling corporate hospitality packages. Mostly at sporting venues to corporates and you were literally given the yellow pages and asked to pick up the phone and call people. And I remember the interview was like this very intense kind of like salesy interview and then at the end of it they were like call me back tomorrow and tell me if you want the job, maybe it wasn't tomorrow but like in a few days or whatever and even that was like really nerve-racking. I didn't still really understand what the job was. I knew I knew nothing about Sport, and everyone just seemed to be like, all of the other people in this group interview, I’m really into rugby and football. So, they were all like just talking about their passion, you know. And I was like, I don't know anything about this. But anyway, I decided to make that call and I think that was basically part of the interview, you were kind of selling yourself back to the sales manager on reflection. But yeah, for a while I was like out of my depth here, I feel like I don't love this, I'm having to like to pretend I'm into something I'm not, I know nothing about it. Hopefully no one's asked me about the hospitality role. Yeah, I mean eventually it goes back to like they're just being yourself, a bit more opening up about my personal life or like the fact that actually, that isn't a passion of mine and saw that there were other opportunities in the role, like there were hospitality packages, the boat race or the theater, right? So, there were other opportunities that like maybe other people were not so interested in that you could get into. But then the business also had this kind of like spoke side of their business. So, they were owned by a giant catering company who owned venues etc. And round the corner in the office there was this other team doing all this other work that you wouldn’t understand. But I met this woman called Vicky Hartley. And I often credit her back to like the person who like inspired me around the events industry. And she was doing this big project for a big tech company, building this giant structure for these like couple of events and she was just looking for help and I put my hand up and volunteered to work on this kind of like more creative events. And that was what I was like wow, this is a great job, and you get a chance to be really creative. It's kind of like telling a story and then, you know, seeing it come to life and I often say this as well, but like seeing the reaction from an audience as they walk in, and I see it come to life. Not many forms of marketing where you get like that front row seat, I think to your work.
Mel Noakes: That’s why we all do what we do.
Seán Doyle: Absolutely, yeah. So, I don’t know if I’ve answered your question.
Max Fellows: No, you did because I think you're saying kind of that moment when at least, you know, Vicky gave you the opportunity and that was a kind of moment where actually, that was the part you thought of. But equally this is suddenly kind of a slight turn but then puts you on to this direction of kind of marketing, experimental marketing or more creative type of communication.
Seán Doyle: That's right. Yeah. So basically, after that, the whole department I work for shut down, I hadn't been there even a year at that stage. And personally, I was like, okay, I want to do this, where does this type of work come from? Where does it happen or that, mostly it happens in London, right? I'll move to London. So, I moved to London.
Max Fellows: On your own?
Seán Doyle: Did I move at the time? My partner at the time, my boyfriend at the time had moved. I kind of moved on my own but then some friends also ended up moving at very similar time. So, we did end up getting a flat together and yeah, it was just like kind of, that was a decision. I was going to go and work in events, and I just applied for lots of jobs and used interviews as learning processes to learn more about the industry. And if I didn't get a job, I'd use the information I got in that interview to make me sound like I knew more about events in the next job.
Mel Noakes: I think that's what people don't often realize is those learning opportunities you get, and I have meet so many people that they look at interviews as a two-way process. And I think it's really interesting to have that sort of approach when you're as young as you were in the industry and not knowing and actually seeing them as a learning opportunity and opportunity to take lessons from.
Seán Doyle: Yeah. I mean I'd honestly don't think I knew what I was doing at the time but like on reflection, you know, every interview I got a little bit better I suppose based on like the experience, so everything you say is absolutely right. And then yeah, I landed at this really small agency, three people that work there, were owned by husband and wife, no longer around anymore, actually called Silver Leaf it was, maybe some of the older listeners might remember it. But yeah, I was kind of the fourth person working there and in a small agency, you just absolutely have to do everything. Yeah, I mean if I look back at my LinkedIn, which I did to do this, like in preparation of this conversation. I'm like okay, so, I was an event manager and account manager. I did this and then I was strategy and like you literally do everything obviously, like nowadays you have bigger agencies, and big companies have real specialists in those things. But I always recommend people, like starting in an agency, starting in a small agency is really great for people.
Max Fellows: I agree.
Seán Doyle: You just have so much exposure to everything. I think like, on the first day I was taking an inquiry from some inbound call and then like later that week I was doing a site visit, you know, then you had never been to before. But I turned up half an hour before and checked out. So, then I've made it look like I had been there and then I organized this event for the first time and, you know, I just loved it. It was all about the people though, honestly. Like really just building relationships with clients, understanding what their needs are, like what their objectives are, how you're going to make them look good and hopefully having some fun along the way.
Max Fellows: I completely agree with your point about that getting stuck in. And yeah, the smaller, I think there is sometimes the kind of, I said Magpie effect, it's the big shiny thing that takes you to it and the reality is actually even some of the biggest agencies and organizations aren't really that good in certain respects. But I started off at, I think was a four-person agency because you get to know then the ins and outs of the role and what’s required to when you do progress, you get that real understanding, appreciation and empathy at times for those are. So, I think it's a really valid point for people to be open to.
Mel Noakes: Those early foundations are so important because you draw back on them. Even now, I draw back at my receptionist role that I had. The amount I draw on that still 20 odd years, it's phenomenal, isn't it? The learning the curve you have, is surely interesting some of the stuff you were talking about there and it comes out in your letter as well. But you say, I'm going to say yes to everything, but you also learn how to say no. But funny enough you mentioned SJ earlier. We saw that a lot in SJ as well, this sort of leaning in and saying yes to everything. And it sounds like you did that for these jobs that going to interviews, learning more. So, I'd love to know a little bit more about how you learn in saying yes, but how you learn how to say no and when to say no? Because that's the challenge I think for most people in this industry.
Seán Doyle: Definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think like on the work side saying yes, asking for opportunities as well, like back to that kind of job, the small agency Silver Leaf. Like, you know, wanted it to be more than it could be and through that, you know, pushed her opportunities to grow the business from being like a traditional agency. That did a lot of kinds of venue sourcing in the odd, small events into like somewhere that had more of a kind of creative production department and what have you. So, I mean it sounds ridiculous saying this now, but like I literally designed a logo myself. I learned how to build a website from a book, and I launched what was called Silver Leaf Productions and we used, you know, what our clients’ briefs were to in a creative way to like, yes, produce these events but also like buy all this stuff. Not just hire anymore because I was like this seems like a waste of money. You could definitely do this better, like buying all the furniture, all the props, all the creative things, and then turning that into like a separate side business, which then kind of got us because we're doing so much work. And some of these like particular venues like these venue groups, like all you should be our preferred vendor and it's like how did this happen. Like I literally just like came up with this idea and we're doing our own etc. So, that is a bit of a tangent, I think. But like in terms of like saying yes to other things, I think this was touched on in some of your other interviews and Max and you probably did the same thing. But going to everything, like the event industry certainly at that stage, there was always an opportunity to go to some kind of networking event whether it’s an association or it's a vendor doing something or it's a venue doing a kind of open evening or something. And that was my social life, honestly in my entire twenties. And I think I probably was out a lot of the week for probably over 10 years, and that's where I made lots of great connections. It's probably where I first met Peter Coe, would probably at Tussauds I imagine. It's definitely where I first met Max at some kind of forum that we were at in Brighton, I think. I met some amazing people I went on to work with. Some great clients, some great vendors and I think that whole just going to everything and building this network was like kind of part of my growth and success I suppose because what I was good at was solving client’s problems quickly. And that was because I knew how to put the solutions together because I was like, okay when do you want to do that. Well, I know that place and that person or this vendor and they would make a good solution and I was able to like to come up with a solution pretty quickly because I had said yes to all of these things are built those relationships, I think.
Max Fellows: And that network. And did that saying yes come organically? Is that something you had to kind of proactively go you know what? I am going to get out there or I'm going to go and do these things.
Seán Doyle: I think I just wanted to, honestly. I was like, this is so exciting. I loved it. Like I mean, that whole time, early twenties, most of my twenties, I still love this industry, like I just wanted to go, it was exciting. It was what I wanted to be doing in my evenings.
Max Fellows: And you then you don't realize you're doing that at the time per se, in terms of that whole kind of terminology of networking is, yeah, gray suited and
Mel Noakes: Handing out business cards to your client.
Max Fellows: Carving cobwebs and masculine. Yeah, absolutely. Where it's actually, the reality is that you meet someone for lunch, they’re the few other people you meet. That is the same kind of thing or something a bit more formalized. Is that kind of meeting people and adding value to them and helping where you can. It's only when you look back and you think, right? This is a client problem to your point; you need to solve it. You think, oh, I met that person there or that venue there or then it all comes together, which is really interesting. You mentioned something just a bit earlier about Vicky, I think it was about being a kind of a champion if you like. I just want to ask in terms of other individuals that have that journey and I know that we've got a little bit less left of that Journey with kind of Clive and onwards are there. But in that period, over the eight, nine, ten years or so. Are there any other key people that act as mentors or champions that help that process for you? Was it something you actually found and navigated yourself quite organically?
Seán Doyle: Do you mean in those early times that we've touched on or going on?
Max Fellows: I suppose kind of after that really, that kind of from Silver Leaf, the next 10 years or so from that point.
Seán Doyle: Yeah, I mean, I think you won't be surprised to hear that Nick Robinson, previous owner of Clive played a big part in my career, and I think joined Concerto at the time as it was and then became like a shareholder and the MD etc. You know, I think when he joined, he saw something in me or what gave me a lot of more opportunity and pushed me outside of my comfort zone and I think I definitely see him as a champion and like, you know, the reason that a lot of things happened in my career I suppose, and we worked together for a long time, and he's definitely someone. There's also an amazing woman, I work with a really short period of time, but I always remember her, and actually, I really need to reach out to her again. But her name is Sara Cox. And she joined Clive as part of the sale of the business which happens later on obviously, and she was like a chief people officer, she was kind of like a, I suppose like informal mentor in a way and she just gave me like a lot of confidence in myself and was one of those people that really like champion me being myself, etc. So, she's someone. And then I think my current boss is actually someone I worked with as a client funny enough years before and not like hugely directly but I vividly remember her just being really inspiring and what I mean by that is, she was so fun and engaging and motivating for her team on site. And I really remember it and up till now I work with her. And she has also given me a lot of opportunity and cleared a lot of roadways for me at Pinterest to, you know, give me opportunities to shine, or lead, or what have you, and I definitely take inspiration from her and how I lead like my team and my part of, you know, her global team.
Mel Noakes: And that's something I wanted to ask you about as she shown because you say your letter, there's a really lovely line in it that says something around, you know, people open the door for me, be that person for other people and you talk about that and fun quite a lot. So, I'd love to know a little bit about how you lead your team and how you create that environment, cause you talked about having people across multiple geographies and things like that. So, how do you do that?
Max Fellows: No, I’m checking the word of coach there as well because it’s something that I have seen you, first had in be a part of helping with you but, yeah, I loved to hear more.
Seán Doyle: Yeah, it is interesting. The culture piece is something I care passionately about, and it was a big part of like, what we did at Clive and what we built there and it’s really big important part of Pinterest. But obviously, my team is like a really small part of a bigger company, which is also part of another department, which is part of a bigger org etc. and we are a remote team. You know I think I've got just one other person based in the UK on my immediate team and then a couple of people in Dublin and like I mentioned the US, so we don't get a chance to be together very often. In fact, you know even the, you know, the activations of my team leading, often they're leading it with maybe one other person on the team or a couple of other people. Like it's only really something like can, where we all get to be together. It doesn't happen very often all at one kind of off-site I suppose a year. So, how do you do that through virtual meetings? And we try to be there for each other and create a kind of like open environment. There's something that Judy who's my boss, who I mentioned is very good at, I guess facilitating is, try not to make it like feel to forced, but like reminders every Monday morning, just like let the team know what's on your mind or like what your priorities are, what your struggles, like what your hurdles etc. or at the end of the week like actively like letting folks know, call it Rose and Thorn, like was the thing that happened this week that your, that you were really proud of that you achieved, or it's kind of like your moment to like kind of, I sing your praises in a way and just let people know. But sometimes when you're working on your own and you've done a great piece of work or something, but no one gets to see it and then the thorn, like the thing that happened that was like really wish that didn't happen or that would, you know, that was shit. And I think that there's moments like that that just encourage authenticity and the team are very supportive of each other just like the obviously we have virtual meetings and what have you. How do you make them a little less formal? Like how do you just make them conversational giving everyone the opportunity to speak, like calling on folks who about naturally not be a someone that wants to come off mic and a bigger group and stuff like that. But just trying to like to make sure everyone has that moment to speak as well.
Mel Noakes: Thinking of a modern-day where so many of us are trying to work out what does hybrid looks like. And I've also worked in an international setting where I've had teams everywhere and it's a really interesting conundrum. And actually, you're almost forced into that by the location of your teams. That's really interesting to hear how you approach that and I'm sure there'll be some leaders in here thinking and taking some of those tips away and thinking about how they can do them.
Seán Doyle: Yes, definitely. I mean like, you know, I wouldn't be in this industry if I didn't say that, you know, getting people together for actual real-life things is very.
Mel Noakes: Is what we do.
Seán Doyle: And you know, we do that whenever we can, and those moments are like magic for our team. Just, you know, if we like we’re at this moment where we built our team back up again, after the pandemic and, you know, over the last year, it felt like everyone was new for a while. But now it's not so much like that, everyone's had some great projects under their belt, everyone's kind of getting into their groove and their comfort zone and you know, know each other's strengths and how to support each other. And it's actually quite an exciting time for our team. So, I am actually, really looking forward to can and like being together.
Max Fellows: Yeah, CAN. Before we start dreaming about CAN and I can add one more actual question there. On the piece around the authenticity, that openness, you know, it's almost gold dust right to try and create that without it being kind of natural and organic. It links into kind of the passion, and everyone sharing the same pattern as well and something else you wrote in your letters around that kind of passion and when it's stops being fun or passionate is to knowing when to, you mentioned kind of the saying no scenario earlier. And how do you recognize or for those that might be thinking around, okay, while I'm enjoying it slightly actually but may have lost the passion. Can you share when, not that it's happened for you, but how do you kind of find that kind of in tune, made a new word there but that kind of alignment.
Seán Doyle: Also, thank you because Mel, I realized I didn't answer your question about saying no.
Mel Noakes: It all good. I was going to come back to it.
Seán Doyle: Saying no is something that I find difficult if I'm honest. And I think I get it from my mother, who has always been a bit of a workaholic, but is also just always wanted to be involved in everything and I think I get it from that. It's the honest truth. But I think what I've realized is when you say yes to everything you just spread yourself so thin that you're not as good, all of those things and you know, recently have been in a situation like that where, you know, couple but really exciting global projects. They are happening at different times than they usually were and there's this massive overlap. And, you know, I was just like, well, I definitely want to be involved in both of those and play a key role in them because like one of them, that project feels like my baby from over the last couple of years. And this other one is so important and just like went through honesty this month, maybe more of just intense like long hours. Back-to-backs constantly for long, long, long, long hours and having to skip half of the meetings for one project and then the other one and then catch up on recordings and things like that. And yes, I was exhausted but mainly I just realized I wasn't doing a great job on either of them or a job that was as good as I would want on either of them, I suppose. And then also like lead a team, and they need me as well. And I need to be able to show up for them and inspire them, and not have them feel like I'm tired or like they don't want to bring me something, because they know I'm busy. So, I think that was a realisation moment when I need to say no to things. It will definitely make you better at the other things. And then, Max you said.
Max Fellows: About the passion, about when that’s, it’s not so much then the no, it's the recognizing when it's time to stop or change or to.
Seán Doyle: So, that's kind of what I was alluding to there but also there has been a big moment in my life and that was when I decided to leave Clive, actually. It wasn’t really an exciting time, we had just sold the business, had been there for, maybe a year after that as we integrated it into this Global Group. There was this kind of like fork in the road moment where like things were needing to change and, you know, there was a lot of opportunity and there was a lot of opportunity coming in from big clients. There was lots of new colleagues and I think I've just like knew I didn't have the energy left in me, to be honest. It was, I felt like in that job I was there for a long time like, you know, 12 years. There were lots of these kind of step changes where like maybe the company was acquired or you know merged or it was a rebrand. So, in a way it felt like lots of different jobs, like this was another one of those moments and I was like, I need to have 100% fill this and I don't know if I have any more. I guess I felt like I had become more of a manager as opposed and whilst I find that part of my job rewarding, it's not all I wanted to be. I kind of think I knew I wanted to get back to that being closer to the work, opportunity to be more creative definitely. But I also knew if I was going to do that or go into something with this like new revised energy, probably needed a bit of a break and I needed to find some more inspiration. So, that was the moment I decided to stop, and find a new adventure. And, you know, I don't think I was like ready to find another company. I couldn't imagine somewhere else I wanted to work honestly. I was like I couldn't work anywhere else at that; I’ve got to put everything into this.
Max Fellows: You've bled Clive, right?
Seán Doyle: And so, that's when I was like, right, I'll do my gap year thing. I'll do it now. So, then traveling around Central and South America, and got a lot of inspiration and recharged.
Max Fellows: Did that headspace give you the ability to kind of make your next move and decision, or did it kind of organically just fall in your lap?
Seán Doyle: It did give me the energy. Although I'll be honest, I still didn't know what unnecessarily wanted to do when I got back in.
Max Fellows: The amazing thing is a head of global and they're kind of silly roles that you have and where you've worked and things is, is that kind of realization that, you know, it's okay to still not know, and to kind of work that out.
Seán Doyle: Totally.
Max Fellows: Not have the answers all the time.
Seán Doyle: I do not have the answers now, like I can’t tell you what the next 10, 20 years is going to look like. But yeah, did that give me what I needed. I mean, there was something interesting that happened. I mean, is it a coincidence or fate? I don't know. But whilst I was away traveling, I actually, like people didn't understand what the job was to be honest. I've got to meet people; I went traveling solo by the way. And pretty much everyone else who was doing that was a lot younger than me,
Mel Noakes: Isn't it sobering when you sit around a table and you're having a conversation, you like we're the same age and they're all 10 years younger, I've been there too.
Seán Doyle: Exactly, at least 10 years younger. So, yes like even just explaining to people, oh yes, that was experiential marketing, brand activations etc., that people didn't even know what that was, and I do remember like to go back to CAN again. So, it was the summer of 2019 and I saw on my socials or whatever. Like this great video of what Pinterest had just done at CAN line and they had partnered with Kira Laureus, amazing artists to create this like, kind of like I don't playground essentially. It was like bringing the world of Pinterest to life and the sense of creativity and inspiration and play to life. And I was like that is really cool and I remember showing it to this guy who I was traveling with, and I was like that's what I was talking about by the way, that's the thing. And then also talking about how cool it was and why I thought it was great. And then he was like, oh well maybe that's what you want to do, like a piece of like a brand that you're excited about and yeah, that's true. And then, you know, so be it months later they were advertising for the role.
Max Fellows: Amazing.
Mel Noakes: Sorry, I interrupted you there. We are coming towards the end, but we can't possibly end without talking about some of your career highs and obviously we've mentioned CAN a few times and Pinterest has some incredible work at CAN, but you’ve had so many iterations of your career. Like what are some of the highs and lows along that journey?
Seán Doyle: Yeah, interesting. I guess, I try to think of them as like heroes almost. So, had this like kind of area I suppose around like 2010 maybe, where we will continue to live where I was definitely felt like I was growing and there's a lot of new opportunities, time to do more different diverse type of work and global work, really started doing some consumer work for the first time actually. A lot of the work I've done before was B2B, did this amazing pitch and two-year campaign in the end for Crusher milkshakes which was really fun and went on to win some awards over. That's definitely a highlight. We also won the Facebook account at that time; we were traveling all over the world for that. I think one year we did like a hundred events a year.
Mel Noakes: Wow.
Seán Doyle: I could be in, it was insane at time honestly, you could be in New York with like a weeks’ notice like working with them with Alicia Keys and the next week, you're back in London doing some global book launcher with David Beckham. And I know it sounds like I'm dropping but like my career has not been about doing celebrity stuff, but there was this like moment, so it does feel like quite an exciting time. And then we were just doing lots of exciting international work and Nick Robinson had bought into the business for like Honda and PlayStation. So that was one. Another highlight is definitely around 2015, 2016, 2017 time. That's when Max and I started working together and that's when.
Max Fellows: I'm not paying to say that.
Mel Noakes: That’s the highlight.
Seán Doyle: It’s insane, isn’t it? It’s all Max. No, but he was part of that definitely. When we, you know, went independent as an agency and like came up with a new brand, the new identity and don’t think we realized this at the time, but we were one of the first agencies I think that was doing B2B really well, and we were just having people knock on our door all the time, they loved what we were doing and so many opportunities. The culture, the team at that time I just remember it, I just felt that we had it so right, there was a lot of really good memories. And like I feel very proud of that time. And that's the time when I got promoted to the board at Clive, which was obviously a personal thing I was really proud of. And yeah, I mean, like I feel like I had to come to Pinterest. It does feel like a, like a high, we've touched on the CAN thing. Obviously, we won the drama award last year. We always had Pinterest presents as well. So, a couple of our big projects getting recognized is really exciting and yeah, we're about to do it all over again.
Max Fellows: My last question before we asked the biggie: What would the Seán of 2003 say to the Seán of 2023?
Seán Doyle: Probably say you could have warned me about what's going to happen in 2016 and 2019 in the world. And I think he would say, I like the way we did things, actually, it was fun. Let's do those again.
Max Fellows: Nice, brilliant, which then brings us onto the kind of the fundamental. So, this is whereas as we do and ask you in your letter as well, is asked the key one piece of advice you tell your younger self. If only you could and want to kind of hand that over to you to, see what that would be.
Seán Doyle: Yeah. So, like I have got a lot of ideas for this, but the one that really sticks out to me is just say the thing. And what I mean by that is, I think a lot of times people struggle to give feedback or to share what they're really thinking, and I think it holds people back and it holds situations back and teams back and projects back and you know it's something as I started working more of a global team and a US business that I realized that actually us Brits are not very good, sometimes giving feedback etc. But sometimes the kind thing to do is to actually just say the thing. Like you know that thing that you did in the meeting, just there, I know you were trying to achieve this, but actually it made you look like this. Like wouldn't you rather know that then just do that again for a number of years. But it goes both ways and I think you have to be prepared to ask for someone else to say the thing. So, you know regularly ask for feedback. How can I get better? Is there anything I'm doing, what have you? And the reason that's top of mind is that I just read this book called Radical Candor and it goes into that a lot and I was so many moments in there I was just like yes, that moment I get back feedback things got better. That moment I did not do that and didn't say the thing, it was a touch of pain for ages. Kind of top of mind for me. And then just one more thing because I did have a really energizing conversation with the person that I mentor through Elevate this morning and it was really good timing. So, I asked her what her piece of feedback was, and she said just remind yourself to take the hour like, however, stressed you are, however deep you are in there, always work just taking an hour to yourself and then coming back to it. It's always way more achievable and not as bad as you thought. So thought to share that as well because it was a good piece of advice.
Max Fellows: Yeah, I like that, I resonate with it. Same with those emails at the last thing at night, worst thing to do because all react to it quite quickly and actually not take the breather, but I like that the openness of feedback and being able to give, but as well as receive and not see its criticism but constructive.
Seán Doyle: Absolutely.
Max Fellows: Just say that thing.
Seán Doyle: Just say that thing.
Max Fellows: Just say the thing. Love that
Mel Noakes: Thank you so much Seán, what a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.
Seán Doyle: My pleasure. Thank you.
Mel Noakes: What a lovely conversation. We've both just reflected on how serene we almost feel after chatting to Seán.
Max Fellows: It's one of those conversations, you don't quite know how it's going to go, but off the back of it feel energized calm, it's insightful. But at the same time, you’re kind of have so many kind of, not similarities but you can see these parallels if you like and go, I can really relate to that, really relatable I suppose is a better way.
Mel Noakes: Yeah, it really is, and I think what's really lovely is, you know the way that Seán in his reflections obviously and I think so many of us don't realize what we're doing at the time, and it's only with the benefit of hindsight, which is why it's so lovely to get our guests to write these letters to themselves. The Journey that he's been on and his approach to things, you know like leaning into interviews and understanding their learning experiences is. Being okay with not having all the answers even when you've been on the board somehow and you're in a new role and you're learning and asking for feedback and going in on how can I still be better? You know, I guess honing your craft and being okay with growing and learning and knowing it’s a continual journey and Seán said this like, I don't know what the next 10 years are going to be or where I’m going to be, and he's okay with that.
Max Fellows: And there's an expectation be it on LinkedIn or social to have that lined up, isn't there? The other thing that I really, you know, enjoyed of the conversation with Seán is his willingness to learn from and I know you mentioned that but equally trying different roles at different stages as well. So, not being stuck in your channel, your river of thinking as we kind of mentioned it in Elevate but being open to it and trying different things as well. And then using that to help define what your passion is and the passion being so important to drive you. If there's something that makes you feel there's a time to say no, recognize that, listen to your gut I suppose and then really kind of go with that.
Mel Noakes: Yeah. And I think so many people will get, you know, the ability to say yes and say no, is such a skill to learn. So many event planners. And I see it in Seán, and I see it in myself. And so many with such control freaks and so we want to be involved in everything and think we could do things better. And I love that Seán was really open and recognizing and saying, you know, there are sometimes I need to step back and let my team step forward and let them have those opportunities. And it takes, I think, real bravery sometimes to accept that you know what? I can't do everything, and I love also Seán sharing his mentee advice, which actually came out in his own journey and stepping back giving yourself space to think and bit and knowing that the world isn't going to fall apart and sometimes the best thing you can do is take a minute, take an hour, take a gap year. Take time to really think about what comes next because I think we're all on such a hamster wheel and feel like we don't have the next thing lined up. If we don't have the answer, something will fall apart. And actually, he's really grown in those moments where he's created space.
Max Fellows: That is one piece of advice.
Mel Noakes: Yeah, that's just a great piece of advice. Isn't it? Just saying the thing, which is right, us Brits are not that great at but it’s not just saying it, it’s being able to receive it and that's a real skill, I think.
Max Fellows: And I think that helps open up this environment for people to feel they can, that in their authenticity and that helps with this company culture piece. I think that's a really nice one to take away and something that we should all, yeah, keep in mind in our meetings, in our workspace and even as opposed to our personal lives to say the thing and be open to it.
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