Episode 13
Dan Howson
Creative Producer & BIZ DeV at Imagineerium & Immersive Industry Experiences
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING ’:
Our guest on this episode of the Just One Thing podcast from Elevate is Dan Howson, the creative producer and biz dev at Imagineerium, the multi-award-winning design agency that creates immersive experiences for architecture, installations and events. Dan is also the founder of Immersive Industry Experiences, an initiative focused on working with employers to increase industry awareness to drive recruitment numbers through creativity, imagination and innovation.
With a 27-year career that spans collaborations with celebrities, artists, promoters, brands, agencies, local governments, prisons, universities, colleges, schools, and charities around the globe, Dan’s CV is an A-Z of some of the world's most famous names, brands, and events.
Dan’s personal and professional journey has inspired him to bridge the gap between education and employment, working with employers to better promote their sectors as dynamic places to work to candidates demographics from ALL backgrounds including vulnerable, disadvantaged young people and ex-prisoners. He has held full-time roles at some of the industry’s biggest agencies, founded several companies, and worked as a freelancer.
Dan believes it’s not what we have in our lives, but who we have in our life that truly matters. He reminds us that we don’t need to make sense to everyone; the right people will appreciate your kind of crazy.
Watch Dan on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify or Apple podcasts
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Dear Dan aged 21 (1992),
I’m here to tell you what is about to happen and what to look out for.But first, never forget who has been by your side from the start and all the people that have helped you along the way. The underlying message of this letter is to understand that achievement in your work and the way you want to live your life depends solely on your actions and it’s important to let them do the talking. However, it cannot be underestimated that your career pathway and navigating decisions for life will not be possible without supportive family, friends, partners and a long list of colleagues and networks you will learn from throughout the years. A list too long and varied to detail now including names of those who are sadly no longer with us. Never forget who has been by your side and who has helped you along the way.
So, Let’s start at the beginning.
You’ll be pleased to know that apart from priorities and unhealthy habits not much has changed from your 18 year old self as your ability to remain young at heart feeds your optimism, energy, and enthusiasm to take on what lies ahead. It won’t be without positive, challenging and fundamental work and life experiences but you will have no regrets.
It’s the summer of ’92 and you’ve just stepped off the plane from Ibiza with long hair, ears pierced, a beer and a cigarette with a need to focus on what it is you want to do. Thankfully, you can still remember what that is but after years of schooling and ‘so-called’ careers advice you don’t have a clue, a single contact or pathway to get there, and even a calamitous interview at Jim Henson’s Workshop didn’t stop you from perusing your dreams. This all sticks with you.
Don’t worry at almost 50, you’re a Founder, Creative Producer, Business Developer and Mentor engineering immersive experiences for architecture and events with Imagineerium and helping to solve key industry workforce challenges with Immersive Industry Experiences.
You’ve had a 27 year career history working with ultra-high net worth individuals, celebrities, artists, promoters, brands, agencies, local governments, prisons, universities, colleges, schools, and charities in the UK and around the world.
You’ve produced projects seen by tens of thousands of people and paved the way for hundreds of others from ALL backgrounds while delivering innovation, social impact and engagement within arts & culture, entertainment, sport, education, and the built environment.
Not bad for someone who initially didn’t know where to start. It’s been a roller coaster, you’ve got the stories, but letting your actions do the talking has helped to define your work, life, purpose, belief systems and systems you live by.
To go into more detail positive and challenging experiences in your work will help fine tune your intense energy, motivation and ambitions into something simpler, allowing you to focus on delivering the greatest impact and create the most value.
Fundamental life experiences will shape your world view, change the direction of your life and help transform an irrational self-confidence and work-centric approach into something more grounded, personal and satisfying.
This combination of work and life experiences will ultimately inspire you to develop a purpose focused on solving ongoing workforce challenges within ALL sectors.
Throughout your young life and into your teens you’ve always been mentally stimulated to do something, especially creative, different, against common beliefs and tell stories. This ability to think creatively, innovate, question what there is, what works for you and embrace public speaking will never leave you and stands you apart from the crowd. Because of this you will need to identify what sets you apart from others in your field and articulate it clearly. Sell results and solutions, use scarcity and urgency, stand out and be entertaining. Look after your physical and mental health, remain easy going, kind hearted, growth oriented, self-respecting and listen to what the gut and the heart says.
These will become your guiding principles, belief systems and systems you live by. They will stay consistent driving you now as they will do in the future.
As will the memory of Michael Jackson’s 1983 Thriller video, the inspirational spark to pursue a career in entertainment, theatre, television or film. You will recount this story a thousand times over the years.
As you were then you will continue to be inspired by experiences that will develop your creative thinking, decision making and networks such as Daft Punk’s game-changing pyramid at Coachella in 2006, Punchdrunk’s mind-bending, production The Drowned Man: A Hollywood Fable in 2013, Gladiator Live at the Royal Albert Hall in 2014, the Abergavenny Food Festival in 2018, Dynamo’s Seeing is Believing Tour 2015 – 2018, and the IGNITE Festival of Creativity 2019 – 2022.
Your personal experiences in life and as a business owner will inspire you to help fill the gap between education and employment. With no support from your school or university, even having studied Theatre Design & Technology, you will feel it necessary to provide access to information and opportunities for others, including those less fortunate providing training and work pathways for vulnerable, complex disadvantaged young people and ex-prisoners.
As you arrive in 2024, you will have taken a careers worth of experience and knowledge as project coordinator, artist liaison, Show Caller, Production Manager, Business Developer and Creative Producer to help Imagineerium deliver immersive experiences for architecture and events, and take the business to new heights.
Off the back of a variety of youth development initiatives started in 2008, your role as an Ambassador for the National Skills Academy for Creative & Cultural Skills, industry Awards for Innovation at the Event Production Awards, and Best Student Experience at the University of Plymouth Vice Chancellor’s Awards, volunteering roles including Employment Advisory Board Chair at HMP Exeter, and a Career Mentor at the University of Exeter, you’ve founded Immersive Industry Experiences to help solve ongoing workforce challenges by raising industry awareness to drive recruitment numbers up and promote key sectors as dynamic places to work.
Your career history is the perfect example of when your guiding principles, belief systems, systems you live by, and inspirations have paid off providing you with credibility, which you will learn is incredibly important.
For example.
In work, creative thinking will enable you to be curious and collaborative, build specialist and inter-disciplinary networks adding projects with Sir Paul McCartney, Glastonbury Festival, MTV, NME, the International Venice Film Festival, Manchester City and Kier to your CV.
You will develop credibility working your way through fringe theatre then full-time roles with Jack Morton Worldwide, KLP Entertainment and Iris Experiences before founding your first production company sevens7, then The Live Firm, before returning to freelance, joining Imagineerium and founding Immersive Industry Experiences.
In life, creative thinking will enable you to ask the big questions, develop a deep interest in human history, follow new paradigms in science and technology and build lifelong relationships. You will better understand that it’s not what we have in our lives it’s who we have in our life that matters, and people who get excited about the stars, moon and sunsets are your kind of people! Physical and mental wellbeing will become more important to you than it is now so maintain that high vibration, go on walks, write down ideas, get up early, workout, eat well, and structure your time.
In terms of your purpose, creative thinking will provide a clear focus on problem solving and making a difference. You knew what you wanted to do from an early age. However, it took a long time to get here due to the environment you were in. School and bizarrely a university degree in Theatre Design & Technology did little to prepare your career pathway. This has stuck with you for life wanting to make sure others don’t encounter the same, inefficient issues.
Even when running a business, you become frustrated with the lack of preparedness for work in new candidates and you will begin a career long journey helping to solve industry workforce challenges by.
· Founding Stepladder, a youth development initiative helping to reinforce employment and training opportunities in the creative industries.
· Producing the IGNITE Festival of Creativity, connecting graduates with businesses and the public to spark employability, placemaking and innovation in the creative, business, tourism. healthcare and marine sectors.
· Project Managing Building Greater Exeter, a public and private sector initiative supporting the built environment to shape the future workforce by inspiring new candidates, supporting employers and promoting a culture that makes the built environment a great place to work.
· And founding Immersive Industry Experiences to increase industry awareness, drive recruitment numbers up and promote key sectors as dynamic places to work using integrated people strategies, virtual reality (VR), theatre-based techniques, safe ultra-realistic environments, specialist user generated content and employer branding.
So, it all sounds incredible but be prepared for challenges in business and in life, that will later change the course of your direction.
You’ll learn big lessons in business linked to investing and financial planning. You will continue to innovate but better understand the limitations and possible risks. Discover the value of getting out there, going to everything, knowing everyone, being seen and saying yes will flip to saying no, not making yourself available, setting boundaries and understanding your time and energy is precious. You’ll understand there is value in scarcity and staying low key. Privacy is everything, and just because you’re not seen or sharing your life on social media, doesn't mean you're not up to big things, and you’ll develop a unique style of relationship building that does not require traditional networking, which becomes timely, unproductive and inefficient.
You’ll learn big lessons in life too linked to health issues relating to partners and children that will require you to shift priorities that will change the course of your life. Not initially but in the longer term this is for the best.
But the biggest lesson you will learn is to TALK ABOUT IT!
So, as a matter of urgency remember and don’t forget.
· Who has been by your side and who has helped you along the way.
· Your guiding principles, belief systems, systems you live by and inspirations.
· Challenges you’ve faced, how you’ve overcame and talked about them.
· And achievement in your work and the way you want to live your life depends solely on your actions and it’s important to let them do the talking. Have no regrets.
It’s the summer of ’24 and you’ve just stepped onto the beach in Devon, there’s no long hair, no ear rings or cigarettes but perhaps a beer or two and on ongoing desire to focus on what’s next.
“They say I dream too big I say they think too small”
And that’s why you need to embrace what is about to happen and what to look out for.
Good luck, all the best my friend, and keep the dream alive!
Dan (2024)
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Mel: Our guest on this episode of “The Just One Thing” podcast from Elevate is Dan Howson. The creative producer and business development leader at Imaginarium, the multi award winning design agency that creates immersive experiences for architecture and events. Dan's also the founder of immersive industry experiences, an initiative focused on raising greater awareness of key sectors to drive recruitment.
Max: With a 27 year career that spans collaborations with celebrities, artists, promoters, brands, agencies, local governments, prisons, universities, colleges, schools and charities around the globe, Dan’s CV is an A to Z of some of the world's most famous names, brands and events.
Mel: Dan’s personal and professional journey has inspired him to bridge the gap between education and employment, working with employers to better promote their sectors as dynamic places to work, to all candidate demographics, including vulnerable, disadvantaged young people, and ex-prisoners. He's held full-time roles at some of the industry's biggest agencies, founded several companies and worked as a freelancer.
Max: Dan believes it's not what we have in our lives, but who we have in our lives that truly matter. He reminds us that we don't need to make sense to everyone the right people will appreciate your kind of crazy. Welcome to the podcast, Dan.
Mel: What an intro.
Mel: Dan, for those people that don't know you, do you want to give a little bit of an introduction and tell us a little bit about you?
Dan: Yeah, my name's Dan Howson and creative producer in biz dev at Imaginarium, design agency. We create immersive experiences for architecture and events, and the same for immersive industry experiences. We work with employers to raise industry awareness, to drive recruitment numbers up, and basically promote key sectors as dynamic places to work. Now, the Dan without labels or titles is just a guy that lives in Devon, close to the beach, tries to look after his daughter in the best possible way, and just enjoying this crazy ride called life.
Mel: And obviously, where you've got to, one of the things that's really fascinating in the letter, and obviously we've worked together in the Irish days was, and I know this was you started from a theatrical background and in theater. So what was that like starting off? How did you get into theater? And what was that journey from theater like into the sort of events industry,
Dan: I suppose I got take you back a bit beyond that, to where it kind of all started, really, and we have to sort of take a step back to about 1983 when Michael Jackson's Thriller video came out. And that was really the spark that got me interested in TV, film, any kind of, that kind of medium. And it wasn't the Michael Jackson bit. There was the exciting bit. It was everything behind that's what really blew my mind. So, I wanted to
Max: Wanted to do zombies.
Dan: It was the zombies, it was the dancing, it was the lights, it was the sound. I mean, it was a sort of revolutionary video in itself at the time. But that was really the spark that was kind of right, how do I get a piece of hats.
But the situation I was in, the environment, let's call it, didn't really have any connections into that world, but it just sparked a passion that sort of stuck with me, really. And I guess over the years, I, got into my music. I made an effort to find out a little bit more about this world and it wasn't until sort of finishing that sort of school piece when you're going, how do I get into TV, film or theater? No, Dan, you should go and do economics or something like that. No, I shouldn't. I haven't even got much GCSE. What are you talking about? So that's another story there about the poor kind of careers advice I received in the early days.
But from a sort of 8-year-old who'd seen Michael Jackson, and was very passionate about trying to get into that sort of space. It then became a bit of a driving force for me to get there and it wasn't until I'd sort of left school, had some time out, was still trying to work it out. And I think, it was a good friend of mine, actually, who basically dragged me to one side after finishing school, of coming off that plane for Ibiza, who basically said, Oh, have you ever thought going through clearing and following up on those sort of theater ideas that you've always had?
That's what I did. And I went to a place called Breton Hall, which was part of Leeds University. Studied design and technology for three years, I think, and I learned how to build sets, create costumes, work lightning desks, work sound desks, that kind of thing. And so that was sending me down a path of wanting to be a set designer effectively. And I really wanted to go and work in the paint frame at the National but sadly, a bit like school having done those three years of studying theater design and technology, me and my cohort, none of us left, I believe, with a kind of single contact. I mean, we were trained by practicing professionals from the West End, for example, and West Yorkshire Playhouse and other, not their fault, but we weren't encouraged how to build our portfolios, how to go out and present ourselves properly, this, that and the other.
So, a load of us headed to London, where the streets were absolutely not paved with gold at that time, and got into fringe theater and it wasn't soon after that that I managed to get a role at Carabiner, which then became sort of Jack Morton, but that was the route that got me to where I started off originally.
Max: When you were writing the letter and we were talking just before actually around there being so much to fit into such a kind of small space? How did you find it? And then, equally, with what's in there, why did that make the cut, versus stuff around that journey that you're talking about?
Dan: I think, what was really interesting about the challenge of the letter and then some of the questions, so you really had to dig deep, and I thought that it really required some depth, rather than a bit of a brushstroke around some of the things that we all get up to and obviously having a personal kind of purpose around wanting to pass on some of your experiences to others, almost from any background.
It kind of afforded me that opportunity, and it was interesting, because I think it's been about three or four weeks in the making, and I hope seen this, but quite a lot of effort went into it, a lot that made the cutting floor. And I suppose it was just trying to structure it in a way that would make sense to peers, but also absolutely make more sense to whether it be a young candidate, someone coming out the military or whatever your background, who might be looking for a career change, or some advice, have a look at what I've been through, both personally and in business. And it might spark some thought there.
That's that was really interesting thing. And I guess the questions were helpful, because it didn't steer you down a route of just talking about all the wonderful things you've done in your career. It made you kind of dig deep and actually think back to… Actually, when I was younger, what would I say to myself? And quite thankfully, not a lot different, just behave and everything I would be fine
Max: When you're talking about the framing of the letter, it was clear there's a lot went into it and in terms of that framing, there's a particular section that almost kind of warmed the reader up or as the reader will hear if they read it, is this kind of thought process or reflection all around actions and people. And I thought was really interesting, and I wanted you to kind of just expand on that, if you wouldn't mind around why that so important, and also why that sets the tone for the rest of the letter.
Dan: So really lovely question, actually, because I'm a big believer in you're on your own journey. it's kind of up to you to sort it out at the end of the day, and your actions will absolutely need to tell your story, both good and bad, but at the same time, it's really important not to forget that massive group of people, friends, family, colleagues, partners, those people that you love and will have a relationship with for the rest of your life, and those that it hasn't quite gone that way. Maybe you've fallen out with it's come back. Maybe it hasn't come back, but all those people and interactions teach you something.
And I guess what was nice about sort of reflecting back, I didn't want to pinpoint just the classic mum and dad story, who had been wonderfully influential. And being born into a sort of military family and traveling for the first 8 years of your life has definitely had an impact on how I cannot sit still, but it's also had an impact on how I'm able to jump into a room with different people on a daily basis and be able to hold my own.
So there's things like that which are really important, amongst other things, but then there's your brothers, your sisters, there's that wider family, and then, usually growing up, there's all those kids that you hang around with, some of which you're still friends with today, who've you know gone on to do wonderful things, not that that's what it's all about. Some have gone on and just had a wonderful time not trying to push the envelope and trying to be the next big thing and redefine the world of work.
I would honestly say that anyone I've come across, predominantly in college, in the places that I've worked it's not just one or two people, it's groups, it's teams, it's all those but you've had some wonderful experiences with. There's one sat across me from the table right now that have had an impact and I think, and sadly, some of them aren't here.
Some leaders of those businesses aren't here. Other people you've known on cruise or what have you are no longer here, and it would almost be impossible I've got a mentor from Jack Morton days who helped me very early on. But I almost don't want to say names, because the list is so broad, so wide, and I value that so much, probably half of them don't even know.
Max: When you talk about them these people have influence, then the people on cruise and those listening, no doubt be in teams and agencies or within corporate brands or whatever their situation might be at the moment, the impact has been such that that is you've taken something away from them in terms of a lesson. Is it more so that they've been in some subtle manner? Is it that it's just their personality and energy? How would you kind of describe it, if you had to try?
Dan: It's a combination. Because I think that when you're sort of, you're naturally going to things kind of relaxed and not forced, maybe not agenda driven so much. When you enjoy your work, for example, it's just like going out. So, I think that when you're growing up in those sort of earlier companies, and you're just learning, you're a sponge, you want to be able to digest a lot of what is being put in front of you, but then when you start to get into a place where this is what I really enjoy, and it's not always fun, it's hard.
But when you can really enjoy what you do, the people you work around with, it becomes so much easier to whether it be learn you're just as much a friend of mine as you are someone I'd ask to be a stage manager or phone up to provide us with lights for the Anime awards or whatever it was. These people are now lifelong friends. And I guess that's what I'm trying to encapsulate with that idea that that classic, it takes a village to bring up a child. It's almost like that's what has happened.
Mel: And it's interesting that you say that, because, I mean, we worked together at Iris. So actually, my first gig was working in your company, Iris experience that you'd set up with Henry, and the joy in that company and the experiences and you in particular, were hugely generous with come and have a look at this. And this is how the sound desk works, and this, by the way, I still don't know. I go in and I get very excited by all the buttons, and it's all great. But you were really generous with that sense, and actually that sense of fun, and that sense of we're all in it together, no one being left behind. And it had a real festival feel, almost in the agency that we built and the teams that we worked with.
How has that sort of shaped the way that you've done things moving through your career? Because certainly, we won't give away the advice yet, but you can really see that in your approach, there's always this sense of fun and joy and everything you do. And how do you not lose the fun when it's 27 years in, and some of the situations that you've been in. How do you keep that going?
Dan: It's a mindset thing really and I think again, I've probably taken some of that via DNA or whatever you want to, genetically, but at the same time, I don't know, without sounding too cliche, just don't take this opportunity or this world too seriously. And not everyone can do that. I'm lucky enough to work with some individuals dependent on their background, or whether they're in prison, for example, that wouldn't be able to sit here and say that, but I can, so I will and I think if my vibration, for want of a better way of describing it, energy, desire to not take things too seriously, but also try and convince the outside world that I'm bloody good at what I do. And if you want to do the same, you should probably hang out with us in some certain way and then pass that on to others.
It just feeds my life and energy. I mean, my daughter's eight, and she could sit here now and give a far better interview than this, but it would be very similar. Her bounding energy, her lack of desire to want to go to school, is no different from me when I was that age. But thankfully, I think that sort of just growing up and maturing a bit. Yes, it's great to have fun. It's also important for me to have found things to do that I enjoy.
But whether we get onto it or not, there have been some seriously shitty times where it hasn't all been fun and light, and you haven't looked after yourself in the best way possible. So I think it's kind of a brushstroke to say it always happens like that.
But anything I would recommend to anyone, if you can, is just to keep that mindset positive. Whatever is going on in around the world, ideally switch off from it, and you're on your own train tracks, and if you can help other people on your way pick up that vibe, then you're doing a great work
Max: You mentioned then, obviously, everyone's on their own journey, and everyone has their own stories, experiences, and the layers of their foundations that make who they are interesting. You're saying about your daughter, then sharing the same personality traits, things like that. I think the whole nurture thing is fascinating.
I personally believe it's actually some of the harder times that shape you and make you more so than it is the better times. Do you mind sharing some of those? The kind of those experiences, and you don't have to necessarily go into detail, though, that you've taken more from, perhaps, and learnt more from in the past?
Dan: Yeah. Of course. I mean, one thing that never really sat with me early doors was the fact I've been deaf in one ear since I was 18 months old. So I was a massive lover of music. I've never really heard in stereo, but I'd meningitis when I was very young left me deaf in one ear, and probably the early days of sort of KLP Entertainment time when we were producing the Anime awards and doing some wonderful stuff out in fields with big brands for promoters. I'd started to think I was going deaf and then it I would think back to times when I was School. At school, when you'd get picked on for not being able to hear but the problem was, I never spoke about it. I never said anything, because that would be picked up on. And it wasn't until I was at KLP and someone said, Go, get yourself to Harley Street, go and see a specialist, something like that. And I went and saw this doctor, and he one of the first things, he said, I tested the ears. He said, Look, you've got a super ear. It's all fine. And the other thing he said is, are you talking to anyone about this? And I've said what you don't tell anyone. And he says, right, I tell you what?
The next time you're in an event or even I found myself at wedding sat on round tables or events around tables and just struggling to hear what the next person’s speech, just shut down and so it can come across as you being rude or other. And the guy said, Look, I'll tell you what. Go and speak about it. It'll change your life. No word of a lie.
A year later, I go back and see him, and it's just revolutionized my life. Just simply about going into an environment where I think I might not be able to hear you or you don't know me. So, I'm just going to tell you I'm deaf in my right ear, and it just changes the whole complexion. It even turned into I use that wedding example, sat next to a bridesmaid. I'm not lunging, I'm just telling you that I'm deaf in one ear.
And I guess that talking about it thing came back to haunt me a little bit later on in life, when some quite big health issues popped up with a partner at the time and my daughter, who I mentioned a minute ago, and those health issues which were diagnosed long term, lifetime, kind of diagnosis, if you like, were two years apart, sort of 2014-2016 and for a period of time, it collectively turned our worlds upside down, both from a kind of work perspective, but more a life perspective as well. And it meant that almost upping sticks and moving to another part of the country to kind of process, spend time on the health of those girls, to make sure everything was right. And I not going to fall on my sword, but sacrificed a lot personally for it, and got into a space where I was just existing for a period.
I was existing. I wasn't doing all those wonderful things we talked about a minute ago, looking after myself, setting the world on fire. I was existing, making sure those around me were in a good place. It wasn't until a period later, when I was starting to feel the heat from some friends and family around me that I started to talk about that, and I think as a man in those kinds of situations, we maybe don't talk about it as much. And since I sort of opened up about how challenging that was at times, it just made life so much easier.
Since then, I've spoken to other peers from those places. We've discussed already and I'm not alone. There's lots of challenges that guys my age, who, on the face of it, could sit down and talk about all those wonderful stories that we went through for the first section of our lives, when things like children and other bits and bobs kind of come into it. It changes the dynamic and I'd even say that in business as well it's not always been rosy, some poor investments, that kind of thing you learn from it, I guess.
And if that's all you can do, then you'll come out the other side better from it. But what I would say is just talk about it, because I've been guilty a number of times of not talking about it, and not reaping the benefits from that. And obviously, the older you get, the more destructive that can become for you, internally and externally.
Mel: Something very close to our hearts is that topic? So thank you for sharing that as well, because I think, like you say, it's so easy to buckle it up and go. Well, must be the only person in the world feeling like this, people will judge me if I talk about this in some way, or I'll be thought less of. And actually, like you say, just getting it out there and talking about it, you often find you're not alone, and there's plenty of help. So thank you for sharing that.
So, we'll stay a little bit in the past and just looking at some of the things that have gone on, because I guess that big transition to Devon, you talk about it there, but obviously that had come out after a period of starting up businesses, being involved in some of the biggest sort of shows and events that we know about. So tell us a little bit about that period, because I think you started three businesses in that time, ended up working with all sorts of celebrities, doing all sorts of things. And it sounds like quite a crazy time, and certainly you touched on it in the letter, but tell us a little bit more about that period.
Dan: Yeah. I mean, it's again been really lucky, I think, in terms of what I've been able to do, and not least starting off from, we mentioned it a while ago that fringe theater experience of just living off peanuts, running sound and light for a little theater show up above The Finborough Arms in Earl's Court, for example, in the late 90s, just wondering, what am I doing? This is not good and going into the national the paint frame, and just realizing I'm rubbish. I'm never gonna get to this point, but there's a spark. Something happened, and a friend of mine was working for Delta sound at the time, put me in touch someone who's working for Carabiner then became Jack Morton, and that that wasn't really where I wanted to start off. I wanted to be doing music. I wanted to be working in a field perhaps at that time. But I managed to get a sort of three year, let's call it the sort of military grade corporate experience of working for some pretty heavyweight producers and doing some incredible shows.
Working on the Millennium Dome was one of those that I will cherish forever. It might not go down in others CVs as well, but I spent, what is it, just over a year traveling the country with a couple of photographers responding to what it makes us to be British. And we would go out and capture those for images that went up on the dome. And that was one of the first projects I got to do back when I was just kicking off, and I felt really empowered by that. And it really set us up to sort of the turn of the millennium, think about moving on. And that's when I ended up at KLP entertainment, which, again you can only talk about so much stuff that went on there, but that was just an incredible period of taking that kind of accelerated corporate learning into kind of the wild west of just lots of young people doing great stuff and being allowed to do it because our leaders at the time were just incredible producing the Anime awards in the early 2000s where you've got Oasis and The Libertines collecting, gongs. There's just the stuff that dreams were made of.
But you're not stood there in awe. You're making sure that your set design is on point, and the lights and the sound are doing their thing where you've got those suppliers in. They're going to make you slightly different from the last person, three years of that took us to Iris with Henry, where, again, we did some amazing stuff with the likes of Budweiser, taking them to Glastonbury and running tents without any branding, which was a first for big American Brand, if you like.
And then 2005, I finally was kind of nudged by a mentor at the time to go out on your own, and that's when I did. And it took weeks before going out on my own turned into a ridiculous contract from an agency that was part of TBWA at the time, which allowed myself and two others to set up a production company called seven sevens, which went on for 8 or 9 years, changed its name to become the live firm, and before I went back to freelance, operated as a high level concierge for a bit, if you want to go down that route.
Mel: I mean, there's all sorts of stories that I suspect, are doing podcasts on that one.
Max: Running your own business, then going into that, what prompted that you had your own business at Seven Seven, rebranded it, and then you changed or left.
Dan: Yes, with so Seven Sevens. I mean, we just experienced a lot of success for a long time. It was basically three lads who were kind of producers, stage managers, site managers, who came together and created, almost like a special forces go to production outfit for promoters, for brands, for agencies, kind of like guns for hire, if you like. We had no clue about running businesses. I don't think we had a desire to run a business, but we managed to turn this thing into a sizable thing, turning over some decent money, employing 14 staff at one point. And then I think for all of us, we realized that we're just good at doing and producing and creating and making, not running large companies or what felt it was a small to medium sized business. So that business went into cahoots with quite a big promoter, and the dynamic of what I did sort of changed, so I left that to go freelance.
But if I was to say to my 18-year-old self, you would start off without a contact or anyone in this field and be leaving a business under a different name, sat around the table with the people that we were sat around, you'd be pretty pleased with yourself and I was. But I was quite keen to use a whole load of experience and knowledge, just beyond putting on events into a different world, and that's what I ended up doing.
Obviously, during that time, 2008, was when we set up Stepladder. So the production company was only 3 or 4 years old. But even then, we could see that young people were coming through, and they weren't prepared. Some had done a 2, 3, 4, year degree in event management. Hadn't done anything live. That's no good to us. Might be good for an agency work your way through for a bit, this, that and the other. But it was no use for us. But also, it became really apparent that it was all very samey, white, middle class people that were coming through.
So there was a real desire to open that up. We created Stepladder, and you didn't just come and work for us. Get shouted out, made the tea that happened as well, but you've got the keys to your own company effectively. So there were some charity clients, and others who would allow these young people to do a little bit more than you traditionally let them to, and their learning just accelerated. But while that was going on, I'd reached out to Camila Batmanghelidjh at the kids company. We had a relationship with them where we had young disadvantaged kids from backgrounds. One of the lads months before had been stabbed 12 times, now sat next to a young lad who just graduated from Bristol University, completely different side of the tracks, would probably never bump into each other in real life. Now, they're working together on a show or a project and that was just amazing. That was just amazing.
Max: What would you say in terms of that? And we've got initiative new gen, which looking to try and create pathways in the same way, when you look at it, the industry still hasn't changed that much in terms of those coming from university, when you sat down with those two young lads in terms of the raw skills or sat there for a reason, take away the paper qualifications of what was it that really shone through, and the differentiation between those that come from, I suppose, tougher or different kind of traditional methods.
Dan: It's a really interesting question, because let's not try and sugarcoat it, if you're in a situation where you have an opportunity that is slightly better than others and I guess what I mean by that is that if you've been afforded the opportunity to go to a college and just be taught about how to put a CV together and where you should send that, there are people out there that haven't had that opportunity.
So even before you get to speak to those individuals, and you work out there's not a great disparity between them, but it's the circumstances that have unfortunately put them in that position or fortunately, put them in that position. So, I think from my perspective, when I take this back to 2008 and it was all about young people, and trying to give opportunities to young people from any backgrounds that has now developed into and I talk about it with immersive industry experiences candidates from all backgrounds. So that could mean ex-military boys and girls, ex-prisoners, boys and girls, women returning to the workplace, the candidate demographics could go on forever and a day almost, but each have their unique challenges. And I think the glorious thing is and we've seen it in the world today. You don't necessarily need to go through these certain routes to make something of yourself.
If you've got a phone and an ability to create those ways of doing it and I think that what is really interesting over the years, when we've had these groups of people together or even if I'm in a prison talking to young men. Now, if there's a drive and a will and a want and a way to do something, then they'll do it with your support. And sometimes that kind of classically trained background doesn't necessarily equal the results from not having that opportunity. We just need to give those who don't have the opportunity an opportunity to shine.
Max: Do you think differentiating factor is drive, that if you're to try and boil it down, there's obviously the hard skill, soft skills and things like that, but the kind of if you're to try and coin the thing that really makes that difference.
Dan: I'd love to say mindset drive this, that and the other. But when you dig deep into these demographics that maybe not everyone has had exposure to, there's lots of deep rooted issues that mean that they don't think like that or can't think like that or find it very difficult to think like that. And again, I'll use working in the prison system service as an example, when you first sit down, I was just really interested. I was approached by extra prison to become the employment advisory board chair, a sort of connection between prison and the outside world to help create opportunities for young, predominantly, but men of any age who might be coming out soon, they might not. But they need, still need to understand what goes on in the world and have something to aspire to.
One of the first things that I was sort of told when I sat down around this table was that what's your perception of prisons and prisoners, and my response didn't quite marry, but what I was told is these people are just like you and me. Majority are just like you and me. They've made a mistake. Okay? And end up going down this route. And unfortunately, when you go into this situation, and you might be in there 2, 3, 4, years, you don't come out the same person.
Not everyone is like that. But I think there's a perception that it's only one type of thing. It's all bad and hold that kind of thing at arm's length. But actually, it's an incredible pipeline of potential talent for various businesses. But let's hope that they don't lose something whilst they're in those situations. And I guess the same thing can apply to those in certain backgrounds that don't have opportunities unless you're exposed to knowledge understanding of how to access the event world, creative industries.
Then, how on earth are you going to get them? And I think that was one of the biggest things for me is that even these young kids would come in to Stepladder days having done an event degree or event management, and you'd say, Okay, give me the names of the top five promoters. List the names of top five lighting suppliers, sound suppliers. They couldn't do it. So, what is going on? What is going on? And we've taken it a step further now with immersive industry experiences where working with employers just to sort of say to them, Look, it's not the fact that the next generation are lazy and don't want to work, okay? It's the fact that you're not promoting your sector and all those opportunities in the same way that you're promoting your widgets to get bought by the same demographic. You're not using the same techniques. Okay?
So take the built environment and construction as an example. You'll go into careers fairs, you'll see pull up banners, and there are people in hard hats and high vis. There's a bit more to it than that. It's just not being promoted in the same way. And the same applies in our sector at the minute, working with the director of the Backstage Center, where bands will go in and rehearse before they go out live, as where West End shows go and rehearse before they go out live, it's a great place to train, but there is a shortage of technicians.
Even in our world where we might perceive that, oh, it's all lovely and wonderful, and everyone wants to be drawn into it. I don't know if young people would watch Taylor Swift video and be as vibed about how I was watching Michael Jackson's video, because I don't know if they know that so much goes on behind it that is achievable.
Mel: Yeah, that makes that possible.
Dan: Exactly.
Mel: And I think that's one of the interesting things, isn't it? So I love your Michael Jackson story is that and we all know it, to put on a show, it looks effortless. And the amount of times that people that people that don't do what we do, that come along go, I didn't realize how much was involved, because it is sort of smokes and mirrors, like you don't see what goes on, and there are so many people behind that polished person or thing that's out there and that you just see, like maybe 1% of the iceberg.
Let's stay in this space for a little bit with Stepladder, starting that in 2008 that is quite a long time ago and was in a very different space. We talk about mentoring and support and professional development in quite modern terms, Stepladder in 2008 was really ahead of the curve there.
You talked a little bit about supporting these young people coming through that didn't really know exactly what the industry was involved in, but what caused you to set up Stepladder, and obviously that has now taken you into some really exciting spaces. You've touched on some of them now, and we'll come on to what you were doing through Covid while most of us were just trying to figure out what to do when you were driving hundreds of experiences in your local area. But what inspired you, I guess, at the Stepladder stages in 2008, because that's quite remarkable what you were doing back then.
Dan: Yeah, thank you. I mean, it was, it's personal experience. So going back to seeing Michael Jackson's through the video, and then at the age of 6, 7, 8, whatever it was. And then it wasn't until an 18, 19, 20 year old that I'm actually connecting with that industry. I mean, that's ridiculous. And I can't really blame anyone for that, but the school I went to had no connections into the world that I was wanting to gain access to. And then, unfortunately, the university I went to, a college, which was a practice in theater school, I felt, didn't set us up properly at the time. And maybe it just for whatever reason wasn't a thing. So it just felt really long and inefficient to sort of go, I know what I want to do, but it took so long to get there. So that was one piece of wanting to solve it.
Then obviously, when you're running a business, trying to keep things efficient, not waste time, especially how we were running our business, we didn't feel like we needed to spend a lot of time on training people, because you're coming with your degrees, and this, that and the other, hopefully you can hit the ground running. That's kind of what we did. Felt like there had to be a little bit more hand holding, but it was pure personal experience and I guess having then started it back in 2008 seeing the real world results of not just the guys and girls that were working with us internally, seeing how their learning accelerated. I mean, seeing some of the things that we did for all those people that weren't connected directly with the business. So just sharing opportunities on a Facebook page, running small crews of young people on wireless festival and others was just providing opportunities that wonderfully. I will speak to some of these guys and girls now, and they'll say I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for working with Stepladder, or I got a job recently with X because I mentioned that period of working with Stepladder in that world, I then had to come out of it. I've come back in. But because I mentioned that, that got me that that role, and I suppose taking Stepladder on into a world of the Ignite festival of creativity, which is just one of the best things I've ever worked on. Ironically, Covid made it what it was.
Mel: Tell people a little bit about what that was.
Dan: Sure. So this was part of the Mayflower 400 celebrations down in Plymouth. If anyone knows about the Mayflower. It's set off to America a few years ago. The rest, as they say, is history. There was supposed to be a big celebration in around 2020, 2021, 2022, obviously, we know what happened that put that celebration on to one side.
Part of that celebration was a project called the Ignite festive creativity. And the idea was, was to connect young, creative students and graduates with opportunities locally, in interdisciplinary sectors. Someone who lives down in the southwest, I'm very aware there is not a massive creative scene. There's very few agencies in the world that we're all have been working in. But there's loads of opportunities, whether it's in construction, marine, healthcare, so on and so forth.
And that was the idea to create a bit more of a fizz around these degree shows, if you like, to engage with local businesses. Now, what we had set up was a traditional looking two week festival that coincided with these degree shows across two universities at the time, where we were going to have events in Plymouth City Center and up on campuses. But what we'd also done was gone to a promoter who was putting on a Tom Jones Show on at the same time as this event, and we'd gone and spoken to them about, can students put some creative up on the screens? Can some of them work backstage?
So we'd started to create roles and opportunities and then build them as almost like items on a headline of a festival? So, it was wonderful. There were all these events going off, but there were these real world activities scheduled to take place that were going to be a value to young people, getting involved. Then you know what hit, and it was all kind of on the studio floor for a bit, and then just had this idea to basically take all of these wonderful creative graduates work and almost create a LinkedIn on acid, stick it online, put a load of money into the SEO behind it, promote it to some of those interdisciplinary agencies that we were talking about. Thankfully, all key stakeholders and Plymouth City Council kind of bought into that.
Overnight, it made a difference. So as soon as this kind of platform went live with these hundreds of creative profiles on, the phone was ringing from local developers, local construction companies, saying, I want to speak to that architect. I've just built a nine bedroom shared accommodation house in the north of the city. I really like that print makers work. Can we buy some of that work?
Suddenly, you're doing the job of the careers advisors in the university? And it was almost like, why isn't this happening everywhere and anywhere? And obviously it should do but it's a lot to do with how is that kind of thing funded. But then the real kind of beautiful thing off this project was when we started to come back into the world of being able to do live work. We still couldn't do shows in some of the university campuses, venues, or even in town.
But Barclays Bank had been open for a while, working under restrictions. So let's chuck a load of work in there. And that's what we did. We put print making work. We put fashion work in there. And over a period of a couple of weeks, 16,000 people would go through and see stuff that, traditionally, 80 would see that would predominantly be your mates, your mum and dad and on the off chance of business. But that sparked conversations. It sparked productivity. It sparked young people getting work. And then, from a sort of producer’s perspective, it was, Wow, I can now use Plymouth as a blank canvas.
So work went up all over the place, trying to do that self-same thing and that idea had come about from doing things like Arthur's day with Guinness, where you use Dublin as the blank canvas, big bands in small pubs, and going to places like the Aberdeen Food Festival, which is A genuine town takeover. If you've never been go, it is phenomenal. It's a genuine town takeover.
And I just feel, yes, that sort of classic place making thing, but for good, rather than just, oh, isn't that brilliant, we were putting work up that would potentially engineer an opportunity for someone. And then that went for three years. And then off the back of that went did something called Building Greater Exeter, which was doing exactly the same, but for the built environment, construction world, that blew my mind, walking into conversations around. So you're Keir, you're BAM, you're Willmott Dixon, you've been around for years, you could drill through the moon, you could build a shard. Yet recruitment is pull up banners, tablecloths and pens. I mean, it's it just doesn't marry up. And you wonder why people aren't interested in your industry. I was blown away.
Max: I think the events industry could be guilty of that, though you look at some of these exhibitions and relative, there's an idea talk about the friend over a beer, I think it was a few years ago, which is around how to get people opportunities, or give people the opportunities, and showcasing work in such a manner that isn't a 3x3 exhibition stand in a space that's pull up banners or otherwise, the practical application of some of their ideas or work with a small grant or bit of money behind it, but even now, some of the exhibitions, and I won't name some of the shows and things, but for the industry, by the industry, are exactly that still, and it feels like there's practicing what you preach, which is something telling people all the time should be better.
Dan: Max, you've hit the nail on the head. I mean, it's down to funding, unfortunately. But you know elephant in the room is that, why business leaders and those holding the purse strings aren't seeing this as a fundamental flaw in recruiting? Well, promoting the sectors, moreover, but recruiting individuals into such a wide array of opportunities that your sector has to offer, rather than just promoting it like it looks like some narrow thing. I use that analogy all the time. A lot of the things that we're talking about, and big brands are paying agencies to use techniques to change our behavior to get us to do things. Why isn't that happening to promote sectors and opportunities? It's really simple.
Max: Do you think and just the last question on, I suppose that that kind of talent piece, is it awareness? Is it access? Is it understanding? I suppose, part of the same thing. But especially, let's use events industry or creative industry as an example. What do you think is the kind of the challenge with the opportunity of new talent or diverse talent coming into the industry?
Dan: I mean, it's a really big challenge, but I think fundamentally, it's that awareness piece. We could probably sit here and say, look how many roles are in the event industry or in the creative industry, 100s, 1000s. But ask someone to name 10, they'd struggle straight off the bat. The same would work in construction. You just think about those skilled trades. You don't think about people employing gamers which would be something that would inspire a certain demographic?
I think it needs to be thought of strategically. So one thing we do with immersive industry experiences is we try and approach it in the first instance from a kind of workplace strategic position, because we've got all this magic, whether it be virtual reality theater based techniques creating safe, ultra realistic environments, to give experiences that are out of this world, that are memorable, like what we do to sell widgets. No, we should be doing it with experiences of the workplace and other down here. We can do all that, but it needs to be business leaders, and those HR teams need to buy into it and understand that it will work, so that then the investment that is needed, and it doesn't take a lot can be put into something that is not just pull up banners, tablecloths and leaflets with, unfortunately, 9 times out of 10 people who might have drawn the short straw to be there, these are the ones that are promoting the values of a company and the sector and all the opportunities. And this isn't for obviously there are people out there who are amazing at this. There are also organizations who employ social value managers or people to go out and do this job. So it is their job. But even then, there's one of them having to do the job of 1000 to try and inspire the next generation.
Max: We nearing that end point where we're going to ask the big question. I had one last one, which is where Mel mentioned, and you mentioned some of the amazing events and some of the career highs and challenges, things like that, if you had or the money, the resource and things like that, what's that big thing that you want to kind of now before kind of the end of the career of sorts, or what's the mission, if you like, that is left, or the thing to feel like you've really kind of fulfilled the potential that you have all the mission that you have at the moment.
Dan: I think we just touched on it there. Myself and my partner in immersive industry experiences would really like to see fundamental change in how industries are promoted, and by using the techniques that in this side of my career I've been using for the best part of 20 plus years and it's a real challenge. But already, in the creative sector and the built environment, there are client/customers who are looking to invest in using virtual reality, passive virtual reality. So real world experiences where I can suddenly put you at the top of a rig. I can put you behind a sound desk at a festival. I could put you in an excavator on a building site. I could put you in a Tesla factory. I could put you anywhere, almost so you can make more informed decisions.
And some of those same people are also interested in not using pull up banners and leaflets and tablecloths. They're interested in using theater based techniques, making sure that they themselves can present what it is they're talking about, the values of the company, the opportunities that are far and wide, and then maybe using props that aren't just Lego to inspire you to join an industry. Let's use props that feel like they've just fallen out of a Hollywood film set, that are real that give you an experience, a memorable one, to take away.
So something like that, seeing some fundamental change, whether it's two or three companies or much more broader, where we could say, look, all this heavy lifting and investment has had a real impact on raising awareness of my industry. It's driven my recruitment numbers up and oh my gosh, we've suddenly made our world slightly more interesting and sexy to all these candidates.
Mel: What a mission. So the boy that left school not quite sure what to do, worked on some of the most incredible events in the world with some of the most incredible people that you could hope to meet, changing the world. It's not bad. That's an all right journey.
Dan: There's a big ask. I've got young daughters to consider before a deal with the world. But yeah, that's very kind of you.
Mel: I think it's really interesting, because when you leave school and people have those like, what do you want to do when you grow up and you're like, I don't know, I don't know where I'm going, but it's really interesting to see that trajectory and just that early passion sparked with Michael Jackson that led you to a theater school that has taken you into all sorts of really interesting spaces and places and almost coming back full circle to go, I can still use all of those techniques and things I learned to help other people that might be inspired or not even know about this industry, to think about the different career pathways and taking your skill set into, let's be honest, places probably none of us would even think about when you're thinking about your career trajectory in the events industry, you're not thinking about changing the shape of other industries. You're probably thinking about account director or senior producer or what have you. So it's really interesting to see the application of our skills in just such a broad context. It's fascinating.
Dan: I think that's a really good point, because I also think, and obviously don't want to keep it all to myself, but I think the worlds that we have been brought up in and trained in. Let's call it events, creative industries, as producers, production managers, technical or creative, there are some incredible skills, transferable skills I can't tell you that I think are useful in those interdisciplinary sectors that haven't been explored yet and it isn't until you cross over into these different worlds and realize that, okay, I'm not helping some of these other sectors to sell their widgets, but we're helping them to recruit, but we're using exactly the same skills and techniques, and the outcomes are exactly the same. So, instead of selling X amount of this, we want more people. But those skills aren't, aren't being used. And so, I think there really is opportunity for more of that crossover, interdisciplinary, working but anyone in this world, we know how competitive it is, should feel comfortable in the knowledge that if you've got those skills as a producer, Production Manager, you can client manage they are really bloody useful.
Max: I think that's it, isn't that confidence of knowing, and we've talked about the role of mentors play in that and helping that that viewpoint as well, in seeing where that opportunity is, and that mental might be team leads or company leads or otherwise that have the open or the viewpoint to be able to see where those cross pollination opportunities are. And I think that's really interesting as to how that could happen, or how we could promote and help through community, through obviously, programs and things like that as well.
So it's a good way then of wrapping that up into that big final question as to what that one piece of advice is, and obviously, you mentioned in the letter, but love for you to share it that one piece of advice that is so important or so kind of clear that you like to share it with the younger self and the wider audience.
Dan: Okay, well, it's a sentence, but I just want to give you the history of it, and it was something my dad said to me, and he said, if you sit around a table, there's 10 people, no matter what you say, there'll be one or two people on that table that don't get it. They won't get you, or they won't quite understand where you're coming from. And I've taken that and I've realized how true that is, not just in work, but in life, and you know whether you're going and presenting and pitching and trying to get something across to a group of people, and you know that not everyone's engaged. As soon as you understand what I've just said, you'll realize and you'll push on, and you'll get on with it. So I boiled it back down into this kind of little phrase of you don't have to make sense to everyone, because the right people will come and love you all kind of crazy
Max: Love that. Really love that.
Dan: Thank you.
Max: Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure.
Dan: Likewise.
Max: Brilliant conversation.
Mel: Thank you so much.
Mel: Do you know what? Obviously, I have a personal relationship with Dan, and he was somebody that I worked for, and he was my first job was at Iris, where he was the director, and it is lovely to have him back on the sofa and be able to talk to him in this context. Because I think one of the things that I've always been really aware of through my career is so much of the work that we do in events industry relies on incredible producers and production teams. We all have these great, big, crazy ideas. We sell them into clients, and there's someone like Dan in the background making that sort of stuff happen. And I think it is so brilliant to see this sort of journey of starting somewhere with quite a practical skill set of I'm going to go to theater and think about sets and the places and spaces it's taken Dan and many others actually from working on the Anime awards, working on Glastonbury, working with some of the biggest names and the biggest festivals, pretty much every major event in the UK at some point, someone like Dan, and Dan himself has worked on and some of the opportunities that that has afforded to him, but then the way that he has paid that forward and taken that skill set to really reimagine what's possible in other spaces, I just think it's a really interesting journey, and probably not one as he himself attested to that you'd hear about from your careers advisors.
Max: I think is tribute to the whole transferable skills aspect that we talked about. I think the ability to take what you've learned in one, perhaps skill and/or sector, if you like, and then take it across, is testament to that and some, and I also think where that skill comes from, the raw drive that he mentioned around and where he does a lot of prison work and things and outreach, where seeing that drive, that inspiring nature of some of these individuals who make some of the most incredible vessels within the events industry. And it's such a broad industry with so many opportunities that it's awareness and it's around support and effectively taking ownership of giving people the chance and supporting them into it really, I think, is a key thing that he's demonstrated, and has had huge success with supporting.
Mel: Absolutely and the other thing I really love that Dan touched on in this episode is the team and the amount of mentors. And it resonates a lot with me from my personal experience but you're going to have some really “official” and sort of mental relationships, and you'll have those moments with people, where somebody will say something in passing, or you'll watch somebody do something, and that opportunity to learn and grow and potentially course correct. And Dan sort of referenced a few times in the conversation we had about people that had taken into one side and said, Well, why don't you explore this, or why don't you explore that?
And sometimes those nudges in the right direction, those people around you and the team you have around you are such champions of your careers, and those little nudges are often the things that take you down to some really exciting places, and I think that's true of the events world as well. Like, none of us are a village, none of us are individuals. It takes a village to run these things and be part of these things, and that team mentality and the fact that you can learn so much from those around you, even outside of the construct of a formal mentor relationship, I thought was really powerful actually, in what they aren't shared.
Max: Yeah, I agree completely. I think taking that energy, taking the lessons in every single occasion and/or experience with an individual and/or team, I think, is where you continue to build and learn. And then his piece of advice is brilliant, and I love that in terms of that independence of people getting your vibe and your weirdness, and you don't have to really appeal to everyone, and that's okay, because those get you are the ones that you should be sitting with.
Mel: Absolutely and just brilliant to have a production voice on the pod for the first time. So yeah, really enjoyed that one.
Max: Great conversation.
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