Episode 14
Charlotte Saynor
Head of Global Events & Experiences at Google DeepMind
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING ’:
Our guest on this episode is Charlotte Saynor, Head of Global Events and Experiences at Google DeepMind, Google’s pioneering artificial intelligence research laboratory.
Charlotte's career has included senior positions at some of the world’s biggest media and technology companies. Starting at Disney, and then Apple, heading up their European events team, before joining FremantleMedia, where she set up the global events team responsible for high-profile events for some of the world’s biggest TV shows. She went on to start her own consultancy, working with well-known brands like NBC Universal, Rolls Royce Motor Cars, and Caterpillar.
Charlotte refers to her career journey as squiggly; we call it stratospheric! Her success is a testament to her passion for events and her ability to adapt and thrive in a rapidly evolving industry. We’re delighted she’s joined us today. Welcome to the podcast, Charlotte.
Watch Charlotte on YouTube or listen to her on Spotify or Apple podcasts
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Hi Charlotte aged 21 (1993)
Years from now (many more than I care to admit to myself!) you will be the Head of Global Events & Experiences at Google DeepMind - at the cutting edge of Artificial Intelligence. You won’t even know what that term means (you’re only just becoming aware of the worldwide web, you don’t own a computer and you’ve just paid someone to type your history dissertation!)
When I was asked to write this letter I naturally had to ask Google’s model, Gemini for help:
‘Write a letter to my 21 year old self’ was my prompt. This was Gemini’s instant response:
Dear 21-year-old [Your Name],
Hello from your future self! I hope this letter finds you happy, healthy, and full of that youthful energy I remember so well.
Life at 21 is such a whirlwind of emotions and experiences. You're just starting to figure out who you are and what you want out of life. It's exciting, but it can also be a bit overwhelming at times.
I want to tell you to embrace all of it. The good, the bad, the messy, and the unexpected. These are the years that will shape you into the person you're meant to become.
A few things I wish I could tell my 21-year-old self:
Be kind to yourself. You're doing the best you can with the knowledge and resources you have. Don't beat yourself up over mistakes or setbacks. Learn from them and move on.
Take risks. Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone and try new things. You might be surprised at what you're capable of.
Invest in yourself. Whether it's through education, travel, or personal development, invest in yourself and your future. It will pay off in the long run.
Don't compare yourself to others. Everyone is on their own unique journey. Focus on your own goals and aspirations, and don't get caught up in comparing yourself to others.
Cherish your friendships. These are the people who will be there for you through thick and thin. Nurture these relationships and make time for the people who matter most.
Follow your passions. Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams are too big or unrealistic. Go after what you want with all your heart.
Remember, life is a journey, not a destination. Enjoy the ride and make the most of every moment.
With love from your future self,
Pretty cool eh? But Max Fellows from Elevate asked me to be the real me - so here goes adding in the personal human element. (Gemini is the words in blue, the rest are very much my own)
Dear 21 Year Old You,
Hello from your future self!
Life at 21 is such a whirlwind of emotions and experiences. And sadly for you, Charlotte, this is all too true - You're just starting to figure out who you are and what you want out of life. You’re in your final year at university in Scotland - loving your studies, loving the partying just as much and excited about the world of possibility ahead. But, in the midst of this you lose your dad, Frank. He was larger than life - he inspired you to dream big, believe in yourself and not to take yourself too seriously. It’s heart-breaking. There’s a lot to sort out and support your mum with and you have your finals coming up. You don’t want to be left behind or left out as your friends are carefree and having the time of their lives.
This experience will make you independent, brave and resilient. But your dad would have said you were those things already.
You’ll do well in those finals and graduate as planned. Starting out in pr and marketing, you’ll find your passion in events - creating moments and live experiences that connect people. You’ll move to that London (as some Scots refer to it), with some time in Sydney and Dublin too, and will work for big brands - Disney, Apple, FremantleMedia before starting your own events business (inspired by your dad who had his own business) You’ll launch tv shows, nanos and luxury cars, work with movie stars and rock stars, travel to Cannes and LA. You’ll work hard, play hard but try to keep your feet on the ground. Culture, connection and purpose remain constant interests and you’ll enjoy helping people and companies unlock that.
The pandemic, a chance glance at a job advert and your curiosity sees you join Google DeepMind (12 interviews later!) You find yourself in the midst of the next technological revolution towards a world enabled by AI. You’ll be out of your comfort zone but excited to still be learning.
At times in your career, you’ll feel friction with corporate life and your independent spirit - challenging things and thinking creatively makes you good at what you do. But remember to keep the balance and fill your fuel tank. Spend quality time with people you love and who make you laugh, travel, sail, look at the art, taste the food, go to the gig, see the show.
.A few other things I wish I could tell my 21-year-old self:
Be kind to yourself.You're doing the best you can. Ask for help sometimes. You’ll try and out run grief; it will keep catching up with you.
Take risks. There will be sliding door moments. Trust your gut and make the tough choices.
Stay curious. It will open up a world of wonder and opportunity
Don't compare yourself to others. It may seem like others are on an easier path sometimes but you never know what battles anyone else is facing - follow your own path and embrace the experiences you encounter around each corner.
Invest in your health - you may not be able to prevent health issues but you will be in a better state to deal with them
Cherish your friendships. These are the people who will be there for you through thick and thin. Nurture these relationships and make time for the people who matter most.
Give back - if you can help others along the way do - you will get back way more than you give.
Follow your passions. It’s never too late (I hope!).
Look at the Stars (or ‘Stook at the Lars’ as you once declared whilst gazing up at the vast starry skies on your way home one night). Stop and breathe life in sometimes. It’s a beautiful thing.
Enjoy the ride
With love from your future self,
Charlotte (year 2024)
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Max: Our guest on this episode is Charlotte Saynor, head of global events and experiences at Google DeepMind, Google's pioneering artificial intelligence research lab.
Mel: Charlotte's career has included senior positions at some of the world's biggest media and technology companies, starting at Disney and then Apple, heading up their European events team, before joining Fremantle Media, where she set up the global events team responsible for high-profile events for some of the world's biggest TV shows. She went on to start her own consultancy, working with well-known brands like NBCUniversal, Rolls Royce Motor Cars, and Caterpillar.
Max: Charlotte refers to her career as squiggly. We think it's a pretty bloody epic. Her success is a testament to her passion for events and her ability to adapt and thrive in a rapidly evolving industry. We're delighted she's joined us today. Welcome to the podcast, Charlotte.
Charlotte Saynor: Thank you. I am excited to be here.
Mel: So for those that won't know you, Charlotte, do you want to just give a little bit of background on you and introduce what you do?
Charlotte Saynor: Sure. So I am, as Max said, head of global events and experiences at Google DeepMind. We are an AI research lab. We are, I suppose, a super unit within Google, and it's an incredibly exciting place to be. I lead the events team. There's about 15 people in my team, and we produce internal and external events. The internal ones are all about driving connection and collaboration to enable our research work to happen. And then the external events are more focused on building trust and advocating for AI to ensure that it's developed and deployed responsibly. And then also, some of that's around influencing policy and educating people on our work and our mission.
Mel: So, what does a Google DeepMind event look like? Is it like the Google Events we'd see as consumers, or does it feel a bit different?
Charlotte Saynor: It feels quite different. I would say. I think it's quite a unique environment. And one of the things that we may come upon that attracted me to this is that there's no precedent. There's been no world enabled by AI before, and this work's not been done before. So how do we do events there? We're basically starting with a blank sheet of paper, and a lot of the stuff that we do is all around trying to enable that collaboration so that we get that serendipitous discovery and we can accelerate things as fast as we can.
So, we're moving at a fast pace. We're really agile, and, yeah, there's no precedent, so it's new every day, and that's fun and exciting.
Max: Do you then put the pressure on yourself to keep pushing the boundaries, or does that happen quite organically, working somewhere like Google?
Charlotte Saynor: I think that's me anyway, right? In terms of liking change, I like to think about things differently. Look, sometimes there's pressure to solve a challenge that feels difficult to solve at the time. But look, we always do it. That's an event, people. We do it, and we always pull it off, and then we make a road for our own backs because we have to do it again.
Max: So that's the minimum standard now.
As those who have listened to the podcast before know, this is based on a letter to your younger self. What the listeners won't necessarily know is that you're the first to have used the Gemini AI tool, an amazing one at that, to help craft or structure it before going in and making amendments to it and things like that, which is brilliant.
How did you find the process of doing that, and equally, was it self-reflective, perhaps, or because you had a bit of structure to it? Did you find that it actually made the whole thing that much easier?
Charlotte Saynor: I felt like I had to write, like it would be strange to say, This is the rule that I do and who I work for, and then not use our tools to enable it. So it was a great exercise because it is an aid, and I think that's part of the fear; it is going to take over. Look, I understand that.
But basically, what it did for me was that it got me started really quickly. So it was able to give me a little bit of a prompt and some structure. And then from that, I was able to think, Well, how much of that does that reflect my journey and my story? Is this a structure that I feel comfortable with? And how can I make them know my sort of personalised history?
Look, it's quite different. When people read the letter, I think they'll see that the version that Gemini came up with is actually pretty good, and obviously, I'm not just saying that, like, make your own judgement, but it shows you that there is this sort of generic structure that works very well when you're self-reflecting on your journey. But then, when you start to personalise that, you'll see that I've changed 98% of it, but that sort of prompt to get me going speeded up the process, so I didn't sit there staring at a screen. Why did I agree to do this? I mean, I don't think about that later.
Max: In two parts, one of which we're talking about before the podcast, effectively, if you were to sit there and look at it, it would probably be applicable and relevant to 99% of the world in terms of some of the things that it pulled up. Didn't it? It was amazing.
Because of the incredible position that you have now and the hard work you put into it in your journey, did you find the letter a moment to pause, and a lot of people have said that it's actually almost a bit therapeutic in doing so, or are you someone who actually naturally tends to look at what you achieved? Or it sounds a bit arrogant to mean it like that, but in terms of that kind of reflective mindset, if you like.
Charlotte Saynor: I think it was quite therapeutic. You told me it'd be like therapy. It did feel like that to some extent. It's cathartic, I suppose, to reflect back on your journey. I don't think we do that often. I try to do that more these days, to be more present, to enjoy those moments, and to congratulate myself when I can. But it doesn't come naturally.
I think the big thing for me about doing that and doing this today is that my career's all been around creating environments and the stage for others. So, it's setting people up to be able to communicate their message and tell their story and supporting them to be the best version of themselves, or tell the best version of their brand story, etc., etc. And I love that, and that's why I do what I do. I love the show, and I like being part of it, but I don't want to, and I don't choose to be the star like the artist on stage. I mean, I quite like to be a backing singer sometimes, but I don't choose to, and I don't want to be that person, really.
So this is unnatural for me. I like to put myself in a position where I am talking about myself, and it feels like you're asking me the questions. So in that sense, it's been quite an interesting process to put myself in the shoes of others, I suppose.
Mel: So your letter starts at 21, a magical 21. Back in the early 90s, it sounded like there was an awful lot going on at 21. So give us a bit of a sense of what that was like for you and some of the decisions you took there, which were really brave considering everything going on for you.
Charlotte Saynor: Yeah. I suppose when you asked me to do this, you probably didn't know. At 21, it was probably the most significant time of my life. So, as I say in the letter, I lost my father at 21. I was in my final year of university. So you're going through loads of change. Everyone's in that very carefree, exciting, young, positive state of life. And my life was sort of pulled from under me. And so, I suppose, when you look back on that and then think about where you are, like, would you have had the same life if that hadn't happened? I don't know.
I think I would have probably had quite a similar journey. But I think it's something that I do think back on: how does that influence the way that I've lived my life, the decisions that I've made, or who I am? And so, this process has been quite interesting to think about. And I think part of the challenge there was that I had my finals to sit. It was Easter when he died, and then I had to set my finals, I think in May or June. And so it was like, Well, do I keep going or do I stop? And I just didn't want to be left behind, and I just felt like I had to keep doing it.
So as I talk about there, like I just headed down, got it done, graduated, did all the parties, and also was doing all the stuff at home, and I think that's been a bit of my life ever since, where I've just, like, kept running, kept moving, and as I talk about in my advice, like it will keep catching up with you, and you never outrun it.
Mel: And I was going to ask you about that. Could you talk a little bit about the tensions between corporate life, your values, and that free spirit, and some of those in that particular piece of advice? I resonate a lot with that, like it does catch up with you. So knowing what you know now and having done the letter, looking back at that, where do those tensions come in? How have you navigated those moments that have been tough and challenging to find the right balance for you? Because success doesn't come without compromise in different places. So, I'm curious to know what that was for you.
Charlotte Saynor: Yeah, I think what I've learned is to try and understand what energises you. So I get energy from creative pursuits; not necessarily I am creative myself, like I love art, but I'm not an artist. I love music, but I'm not a musician. I love being involved in those activities and being around those types of things. I like thinking creatively, and that gives me fuel and energy. So sometimes it's not about stopping for me; it's about injecting the things that will energise me and make me feel that positive adrenaline spur, and I suppose that sense of being alive and present.
Whereas the things that drain me are sometimes things like politics and processes, when you feel that you're at odds with other people's journeys or ways of working, or if you feel there's no trust in working relationships and that type of thing. And I think with corporate life, I do like to challenge things, and I think that can be really helpful. But I've also learned that sometimes you've got to think about how you frame that or recognise when you've outgrown a situation, and it's not helpful for you to remain in that role or to keep challenging because, actually, it's disruptive. So we are working out what that balance is.
But the thing I never quite get right, and I think I'm starting to, is rest, like taking that time. And actually, someone recently said to me, You've got to stop doing that. Wait, when this event is done, I'll do this. When this is done, I'll do this. And now I'm trying to rest as I go. So an age you don't write about the same, like we used to be able to do those events till 3 in the morning, go out afterwards, like work the next day.
Mel: I can still come.
Max: I've got the stamina; might I add? But it's definitely the sleep that's the hard one for it. You're saying that you're only just figuring it out, but you're articulating it in such a manner that it comes across with some real self-awareness and some real understanding of, and only because of COVID have I understood the things that, in order to keep a state of equilibrium, I need to socialise at least twice a week or do something like this with other people, exercise at least twice a week, and things like that. But I've never thought about, actually, the things that drain you more than the opposite. So it's interesting that you've kind of nailed that. And I've never really thought about it like that—being aware of the things that actually pull you back. And the way that I've always talked about it is almost like a pressure cooker, and I simmer about 5, maybe 4 or 5, but actually it's the things that cause it to go up rather than the things that you need to do to bring it down.
Where did you find that you mentioned only now some of the other aspects, but the self-awareness? Those are the things that you need or that give you energy and stuff. When did that come into play for you?
Charlotte Saynor: I think the benefit of age is that it gives you wisdom. Every year goes by, and you get more reflective and think about what works. I think one of the things that's been interesting is that, obviously, I had my own business before, and then I joined Google DeepMind, and I suppose the challenge and I suppose the honour of this role have been managing people in a corporate environment. So I've had to think about the processes of being a leader again, and I've had to think about mentorship and coaching, and through that, I've had to be reflective in order to be able to coach, guide, and mentor. And so people often will, when you're in that position, say what works for you, or have you got any advice for me? And I thought, well, actually, I need to have some. So, I need to go through that process of really thinking about what works. And so yes, over the course of the last few years, I've gone through, well, actually, things that work for me and processes that work for me. Can I share those? And will those help or resonate with other people? And through that, the discovery or self-realisation has been that it's this fuel-type thing of what goes in, what's draining out, and how do I sort of manage that a bit better? Otherwise, I think people live their lives on the precipice of burnout.
Max: On that teaching edge, when you're talking about the team now, the team of 15, do you class yourself as a manager or a leader?
Charlotte Saynor: I'd say a leader now, I mean, and I think that was probably one of the interview questions in my 12 interviews, was like, What's the difference between management and leadership? And I'd say at this stage, yes, it's about leading, and it's about setting the vision and the direction, getting people to buy into that vision, and then keeping them true to that ambition. So like holding fast to it, keeping their confidence, keeping them like adapting to the challenges and the curveballs that come along the way, and ensuring that they feel supported, whereas with managing, I think that's a lot more of the hands-on doing, the solving, and the solutions. And at this point, I would say my team is way better at that.
Max: Almost a bit of that mentoring role. Then some of the characteristics you just mentioned therein are obviously a lot of what we talk about and see when we've gone to do training with mentors. So very similar. So some of the big roles that have led you to this point then kind of going back a little bit, then after university, what was the kind of journey then from that, so you came out of uni with a degree in history, that classic events qualification, where did that kind of then take you, and what did that look like, and how did he get into it?
Charlotte Saynor: So I did social and economic history and modern history like it was a random start, but I absolutely loved it, like I was good at history at school. I had an amazing teacher who brought history to life by, like, he was talking about coal mining and crawled through the desk and got stuck, and we had to get them out, but it was just that storytelling—the show of it, the stories about people—that totally captured my imagination. And I'm really fascinated by people, and I always have been, so I've referred to that often through my career. I don't think it's in any way irrelevant, like it's
Max: Stuck under the table.
Charlotte Saynor: Yeah, I've been stuck under tables many times, crawling on, trying to find the power of sockets, as we all do in events, but I think that, like social history, patterns, and cycles, even now we talk about AI as being the next revolution studying the Industrial Revolution. There's passion through history. So I find that very useful to call on and to pull on in many sorts of work challenges. But yeah, it's not the natural course that you would expect to take.
So when I came, well, I suppose when I was in my final years, I think everyone else wanted to do it. They were all talking about finance, teaching, law, and personal things, and I didn't resonate with that. And I think I always felt like marketing was something that might be in my bag, and it was the time of the big brands and Coca-Cola ads. And I did my dissertation on marketing the American Dream, which was the rise of consumerism in 1920s America. If you want to read it, I'm sure I've still got it in the ad. And that ignited that whole interest and passion around marketing and influencing buying decisions, popular culture, and all of that. So I thought that would probably be what I wanted to do.
But it was tough when I graduated. It was a recession. We've had many since, and PR was my route in. So I actually wrote letters to agencies and put them through the door, looking for a job and a lady. Jill Ross watched this. I don't know where you are now, but thank you. She took a chance on me, and I went in and worked for free for, I think, a week, and then at the end of that week, she said, Please, will you stay, and I'll pay you? So she gave me a start. There's only four people in our agency, and I was there for a year and loads. I shared an office with her, and she was really inspiring, and I was working on lots of PR accounts, and it was just a great start, and she was very supportive of the situation at home, which had been challenging in Edinburgh, supporting my mom through all of the complications that come with losing a family member.
But I said to her at the end, like, I want to go to London. I always want to go to London; it's time for me to do that, and she was like, Well, I wish you the best, and let's do it. So then I applied for a role in a PR agency in London and came down. I ended up working on Euro 96, which feels like so long ago. I knew nothing about football and was working with Snicker sponsorship, doing photographs with the England team and Gareth Southgate, and many others, and working on food and alcohol accounts. And again, it was actually just a great job, like throwing in the deep end and learning fast. And then I just sort of broadened things out, and I ended up doing a marketing role. I did some marketing qualifications at night, and then I had a sort of broader, sort of marketing publicity role at Disney. And sort of learn, I suppose, all of the things that sit around events. But ultimately, I realised that events are my passion and were actually what it always came back to, and that's what I was good at.
And so I just then started to narrow it down. Narrow it down. And Apple was the first role where I just went in to head up events. And that was the sort of journey from then on, really.
Mel: And how much do you think? Because we talk about this a lot with guests on the podcast, but also within the mentoring sort of circles that we work with, how much of the early experiences and that opportunity to work in a small agency in close proximity to a senior, the breadth of brands and jobs, and the types of things you do? Because I think there's this belief you have about a squiggly career—that there's this linear, perfect version of success—and yours has absolutely been this sort of broad learning. So how much of that do you think has played into the types of roles you're now able to play and the success that you've had?
Charlotte Saynor: I think it plays into it massively. I think you've got to be curious and you've got to be tenacious, so if you want opportunities, So, as I said, I wrote letters and put them through the letters.
Max: I did the exact same thing.
Mel: So many people on the pod have had that industrious sort of beginning, and I'm just going to make it happen by cutting out newspaper ads.
Max: A friend sat me down and said, So who do you want to go for? And we picked the top 10 experimental agencies that time, and she introduced me to LinkedIn, and suddenly we found the person who we wanted to and just wrote a letter. We wrote the same letter, tweaked it slightly, and then off you went. But out of that, yeah, I think 6 got back in touch. And yeah, 3 offers and things, but yeah, exactly the same as funny saying that.
Charlotte Saynor: And Gemini would help you, and I would write that letter.
Mel: Now all those poor recruiters are like, I've got 300 letters.
Charlotte Saynor: Yeah, I'm really interested to hear that, actually. And I think, yes, it's that it shows your passion, like that you really want something and that you're proactive and a go-getter. And so, I suppose, that's how I started. And then further down my career, when I was travelling, I was in Sydney, and I faxed, faxing... I'm faxing a press release to PR agencies, staying London account manager entirely for the job. And I got a job. So I suppose I've been fortunate in that when I've done it, it's paid off. So that's given me a little bit of self-belief that if I knock on the door, the door will open. And when I was self-employed, my rule was always that for every 10 coffees, it would lead to one opportunity. And I still believe that. So I still believe you've got to do a lot.
Max: More. The base shows off, yeah. Mine are slightly higher than that, but that is...
Charlotte Saynor: You are more of a salesperson.
Max: Salesperson through, but someone asked me recently if you were to pick three characteristics that you felt were really important to gain a career or progress in a career within the industry. But I think it's broader, and I think initiative was one of those that I really feel, so it's that initiative to fax or to write letters and things like that rather than sit back and wait for a recruiter or maybe jump on LinkedIn and just respond to ads. And I think initiative is something that is probably not talked about enough. So it is very similar. So, have you found... Same question, then back to you...
What are the kind of characteristics or things that you found that have held you in good stead, as you've gone from these mega brands, head of events, Apple, and things like that in Fremantle, which I think actually where we first met was Fremantle? What are the kinds of consistency, or what are the characteristics that you have seen, or that you feel kind of helped on that way, or if you were to look back and see someone else do it, would you say advice wise?
Charlotte Saynor: I say the same word often. It's like curiosity, like just being really curious about the people that your stakeholders are, basically, and what makes them tick. And being curious about the product, the messaging, or the purpose will unlock many opportunities. And so I've always found that that's helped me. I think there has to be an element of hard work. We talk about balance, and we should have balance, but I think the events industry is a lifestyle, and it's a lifestyle that you need to want to do, like, and choose to do. It's not for everyone, and that's okay, but there's an element of hard work, especially in the earlier days, where you've got to put those hours in because events don't... they're not standard. We run over; there's rehearsal. The speakers turn up late. The AV doesn't work. There's no WiFi. Those teams will just run through your career. So I think you've got to want to work hard, and you've got to enjoy working hard to some extent. And I'm not negating the need for well-being at all. I think that's a great development in the industry. But yeah, being curious and hardworking are important.
And then, I think initiative is everything. And when you asked me off camera earlier about my view on going to university and getting degrees, I think whatever journey people want to go on, I think it's important if you want to go to university or college and study something and you've got a passion, and you think that that's something that you're going to enjoy and benefit from, like, do it.
Max: I couldn't agree more, and where we've spoken about neurodivergence and different skill sets and things, I think the events industry is one of those few with the means of artistic creativity, whether that is lighting design, whether that is creative traditional 3D, or whether that's being created with spreadsheets. And from an accounting perspective, individuals have these core talents, and the way that they work is brilliant. So yeah, so it's exactly why thank you for the plug with the new generation pieces is exactly why that's been launched to give fair, equal, and open opportunities to everyone, really, because I think it deserves it. And our industry is pretty brilliant, isn't it? Being kind of biassed, though, is it, yeah, exactly?
With that, which of the roles that you've had, have you kind of learned the most in, or asked you a question earlier as to, which of the challenges have you cherished the most in that career up to where you are now?
Charlotte Saynor: I think, like the most recent, this role has been interesting because I've had to transition from being self-employed back into corporate life, and I did not expect to be here. So it's as much a surprise to me as it is probably to everyone else. And I left corporate life to be my own boss. I was ready for that, and it was the time, and it was all something I'd wanted to do, and they very much enjoyed it. And I had some great clients and worked on some incredible projects. There was always that point along the way where I felt like I was. I'm not sure that running a business is entirely my forte; my father had one I grew up with—the highs and lows. I think I felt like that was something that I'd like to explore.
But I think some of what I love is just the sort of being in the cool face of the experience and live moments, and you start to get distanced from that and caught up in trying to be the accountant and worrying about cash flow and trying to chase the business. And I'm not. I'm good at influencing, but I'm not a salesperson. So I didn't love that part of it, and I was always looking for maybe the right partner or the right collective that would help me make that next push on with the business.
And when the pandemic hit, it was definitely time to go. Like, this is tough. I was in Dubai. I just delivered a huge event, and then the next day, the next 18 months, it was all cancelled, phone call after phone call. So I was just on the beach, pressing the button for more booze. Another bottle of wine is going to be needed over here. And so there was that, just that sort of point, right? So, this is the reality. There's no business coming, and what does that mean? And I think I did pivot, as we're all sorry about that word; it's quite tricky. It's tricky. Roster,
Mel: I will come back to that.
Charlotte Saynor: I did some, I think, quite successful virtual events, but I wasn't in a position to compete with the big boys. Big agencies had the financial means to invest in the technology and adapt, and I just wondered whether it might be a time to reflect and think about something else.
And just by chance, I thought, Oh, how wonderful I am; I should get a job. What does that mean? Would anyone want me? Like, could I have a job again? And I logged on to LinkedIn. I hadn't been on there for a while, and the first job that came up was this one. So I thought I could do that job, and I'd like to do that job, and I'd actually heard of DeepMind. I'd done some work with McKinsey, and DeepMind had come up in some of the research and around some of the sort of new trends and interesting businesses at that time, and so I was aware of them, so the brand jumped out.
And then I started thinking, actually, this would be really interesting, and that curiosity piece around. I know nothing about this, but I'd like to learn. And so, I suppose, that's how I ended up here. And then I've had to go on this massive journey of, like, transitioning from being self-employed to being back employed again. I definitely went on a journey with it. Of course, my god, am I going to feel trapped, like being in this corporate world again? And there were definitely moments. But I'm very grateful for moments. But I'm very fortunate that my line manager is just like, well, you can do it that way. Like, I don't mind hiring you to do this, but like, it's fine. Like, you're here for a reason. And so I give myself the sort of freedom to try and be myself and bring my whole self to work, and that works some days better than others. There's moments where I think I say letters, where I feel friction with corporate life and with my individuality, and I think it's quite a healthy friction, and I learned to embrace that. So it's been a good self-reflection journey. And then finally, I'd say that when I'd last been in corporate life, which was quite some time before, managing people was really different.
Max: And what do you mean by that?
Charlotte Saynor: I think we are good or bad, right? There's a lot less of that sort of self-care and, like, focus on well-being and support and DNI-like initiatives, and so it's great right now to be in a situation where all of that stuff has surfaced, but thinking about that coming back into that world, there's a lot of new language, isn't there? So I've had to embrace that, and I've enjoyed that, but I've had to be curious and ask the questions to make sure that I'm understanding the nuance. And so that has been a really interesting experience of just reconnecting with how to be a leader and a manager and how to be an ally, all of which are constantly evolving, and I've really, like, embraced that, and hopefully, I get it right some of the time, and some of the time I don't, but in no situation, I'm able to say, Can you explain to me the nuance there and your perspective? And so I hope that it's been beneficial for the team to see me go on that journey as well. So yeah.
Mel: You mentioned something there in your talk that sort of stuck out to me, which was that when you saw the job ad, you went two ways. You said, I can do that, and I want to do that, and I can learn a lot here. And I think there's something really interesting that people assume, as you get older and you've had more experience, that you know everything and you've done everything. So what's it like to have that confidence that I can do this but also that I need to learn? And then facing 12 interviews.
Max: Yeah, I want to hear about the 12 interviews as well.
Charlotte Saynor: There was a point where I wondered, because it was all virtual. It was a pandemic. It was a point where I started to think of the semi-five because you're like, when you haven't met anyone and you're just constantly at home on video calls. I was thinking, and I started to get towards it. I'm thinking this has gone on for a long time. Like, weren't they trying to find out by themselves? It became clear later. That's why you can't keep up a front for 12 interviews. They start to see the real you. So where's the confidence coming from? With experience. because you've been through various roles and you've learned, but if we go right back to the beginning, I suppose I've got resilience, like I've come through really tough times, and losing my father wasn't the only tough experience I've had. I've had other curveballs and experiences that have really challenged me, and I think, but I've always... You push through, and I suppose I have the confidence that I can get through difficult things.
And so I knew that there was some sort of proof in the pudding of what I'd done. I've done various roles. I've survived them; hopefully, I've thrived on some of them, and I've had some impact and success. So there was that. And I knew that... well, I could understand what they were trying to do in the job ad, and in my time consulting, I've worked with lots of businesses that are trying to create connections and who are trying to encourage, like, collaboration.
But the big thing that attracted me was that it's a mission-driven organisation with a really strong purpose. And that was exciting. And I thought, Look, I can definitely get on board with that. But what was, I suppose, the whole learning curve? I know nothing about artificial intelligence. I know a bit more now. But as they said to me, we're not hiring you to develop AI tools. We're hiring you to help us create shared experiences, to enable us to create the right environments for that work to happen in, and for us to be able to connect with our policymakers with opinion forms and with the general public so that they can start to engage with the work that we're doing. You've got the skills and experience to do that, and I suppose that came through in the process.
Max: So those 12 interviews, and we know others that are there and have gone through 8 and 10s, are quite notorious. What was that process like? And what are the key things? Or I know that I probably can't say everything, but I suppose things that you could share that were really interesting, or interview tips or questions or things or tasks that you found really interesting, is that process that you thought actually really exposed your that kind of was a good one.
Charlotte Saynor: You've got to listen as much as you talk. Because of each process, you've got to take what you've learned into the next round. So you've got to start listening to the language they use and the questions, because then you start to realise that that language may be words that are used every day in that company. And then you can play back the same language and future interviews, and then people will feel like you're already part of the team. So really listening to the language, and then the way that your interviewer phrases the questions, I think is really important. Asking questions is like trying to get your questions answered at the end; you'll learn a lot from people's responses to the questions that you ask. They're really important.
So I think, yeah, it's a two-way street, and at every stage, you're trying to learn something from the previous round that you can bring to the next round. And then each time you do that, there's another little tick box going on there, going, Oh, they mentioned that, or if they were able to play that back, or those things.
So I think it's definitely what I see a lot when I'm interviewing people. Sometimes they're obviously, totally, and understandably trying to present themselves in the best way, but sometimes it's about doing that. But remember that you're interviewing the organisation as well, and you need to make sure that it's the right environment for you, but you also need to try and learn in that interview to help you be successful in the next round.
And as I said, you can't keep up a front for 12 interviews. So there'll be challenging questions and there, and there definitely were, and towards the end, and there was talk we spoke about, will you get frustrated, right? being your own boss, and I suggest I will. But is that not what you want? Because you want someone who's going to come in and challenge you and want to change things really fast. So, yes, there will be an element of that, but I think that that'll be like a superpower. So, let's embrace it. It might be bumpy sometimes, and I'm sure it has been, but I think the impact pays off, right?
Max: Yeah, for sure. And so would you say, and it's kind of a bit of a redundant question to an extent, but the greatest achievement of the career to date is the role and where you are at the moment.
Charlotte Saynor: I just see it as one big collector. I'd say this has just been really interesting, like being able to sort of bounce back. I suppose I'm not going to say the P works. I've used it once. Post-pandemic, I'm proud that I was able to do that and embrace it. And I've been able to have an impact at this stage of my career on something entirely new. But I'm still proud of each step of the journey. And I think there's definitely points where I recognise where something isn't the right place for me, and I'm proud that I left Apple. It was definitely a really defining moment for me. I think, like
Max: More importantly, I'm proud that it's really interesting to use the language around leaving a job.
Charlotte Saynor: Yeah, because I was really delighted when I got that role. And again, it was a big interview process for tech companies. I flew out to Cupertino and met the team like it was. Again, it felt like a really big achievement to land the role, and it was an amazing rule. And they are an amazing company, and I have really, really positive things to say about Apple. Success speaks for itself. Like all of the reasons that Apple's success is because things are controlled, because the marketing, the design, and the brand are managed in such a way that is just so clever.
But what I find is that when I joined, I couldn't have any impact because I wasn't able to tailor anything to bring any bespoke aspects, to bring my own influence to anything, because that playbook was set, and that playbook was set by the teams in the US, and it was a playbook that was working, right? So I was going on adventures, and I was just pressing the button within the agency, and it was the blueprint, and I was just sort of sitting there backstage while they delivered stuff. And not to say that I'm not proud of launching the nano one and having to, like, Q Steve Jobs in on the live satellite feed. That's definitely the most stressful day of my life. But I didn't feel like I was bringing anything of myself to it.
And so I think the role at Freemantle was surfacing, and it was a global role, and that was in the European world, so that was appealing. But I also just knew that that was going to be a chance to set up a team and influence. And I do love Tally, so getting back into Tally and, yeah, and I just thought you know what? That's going to be your tribe.
But as you would say, Look, I don't think you need me. I really don't think you need me. I think you need something else, and if I stay, I don't think I'll be impactful, and I don't feel that I'm going to be a real enthusiast, yeah, advocate. So I'd like to just be the consumer and buy the products, and I wish you well. And I saw huge respect for the people that are there and are still there, but it was not the environment that I was going to thrive in. So I'm sort of pleased that she had the, I suppose, confidence to recognise that at the time.
Mel: It must have been really hard to take that decision when you're in at that time as well. Huge branding, really exciting things, breaking the mould on a daily basis—almost, like you said, the courage to step out and go—actually, this isn't for me. Was that a sudden realisation, or was it a realisation over many months? What was that point that you were like, Yeah, it's time?
Charlotte Saynor: I think when you've joined any organisation, it's exciting, isn't it? And you're onboarding, and you're meeting amazing people there, and I was really excited about the brand, and I was going through that process, but then when it came to the actual doing piece, once you're in, I was meeting people and building great relationships, but then realising I couldn't actually deliver on things that they needed or wanted or I felt I could do, because we needed to stay within this blueprint. And as I said, I think the blueprint works. So it wasn't that I felt that what was being done was wrong. I just felt that, at that point, I couldn't be the creative person I wanted to be. So, it was just a gradual, I suppose, realisation, and then, when other opportunities were surfacing around me, I started to sort of look, listen, and have the conversation. And when you start being willing to have a conversation, you think, Oh, well, there's a little chink of light there. And why am I taking the call? And then, as soon as I had the first conversation about it, I got excited, and I thought, Oh, yeah, I could walk away from this now. And I absolutely loved it and had a great time there. So, it was the right call for me.
Max: Yeah, really, really interesting. And then, with, I suppose, the roles that you've had today and things like that, what would be the advice you give? And I suppose, reversing that round, and obviously from a mentoring perspective and things, is there someone who's been giving you advice to help you steer your career, or has it been one of more self-discovery?
Charlotte Saynor: I would say it's self-discovery. I don't think I've ever had a formal mentor. I think it's a great thing. I wish, in some ways, that I had. I do love mentoring myself now, and I see the impact that it can have. I think I've had advice from line managers along the way—little nuggets that have been helpful. I've observed other people and seen what they do well. I love podcasts and take nuggets from them, but yes, it's just been self-discovery, I think. And I try to be self-aware. So I think that that self-awareness helps me, like, listen to my gut and make the right choices along the way.
Max: And so just before we get to the big question in your letter, AI enabled or otherwise, there were a couple of points, or several of the points, some that you added, some that you didn't, and one of those was, take risks, and another one was, don't compromise, and things like that.
Are there any of those that you feel kind of stick out as things that you now try to live by, or are those just more broader ones that you've been prompted to do, or, should I say, say?
Charlotte Saynor: All of those I wholeheartedly stand by—the ones that are in my letter. Like, not comparing yourself to others is a big thing. I think, in your personal life, in your work life, like we spend too much of our time thinking or they're on this journey, this has happened to them. Why is that not happening for me? Why is the thing... it's wasted energy? We're all on different journeys, and we've all got different paths. And you've just got to, like, run along your path and, like, look around each corner and be excited about what comes along. And I think that we're never; you look at people and you think, Oh, they've had it easy. Everyone's got a different battle. And I don't think when you're younger, you realise that, and as you get older, the wisdom of you talks to friends and colleagues, and you realise that everyone's facing different anxieties, obstacles, or challenges. And so, definitely, we waste too much time on that too early, I think. And as you get older, you stop doing that. And that's real freedom, I think, of age, and I mentioned curiosity all the time. If you're curious, there's wonder and opportunity out there. And then I think it is that...
Mel: That was one that I loved and wanted to ask about.
Max: I wanted to dive into it today just to kind of get the grounding behind that one.
Charlotte Saynor: I think the thing about the... It's hard to say the Scottish accent; look at the stars, the double o's, and actually the stick at the large thing. I may have had a couple of glasses of wine, and like walking home at night, and especially in Scotland, sometimes in the summer, you get these huge skies. And I just remember walking along and just being really present for a moment and looking up and thinking, Look at all the stars, but it came out as a stick at the large, and that's been a bit of a catchphrase. Hopefully that'll be my epitaph; stick at the large or on a bench somewhere quite like that on a bench.
And I suppose what I'm trying to say with that is that sometimes you've got to stop and just think, like, take in the sort of vastness of everything around you. And like, life is beautiful, and sometimes we're very much on this treadmill of, like, the next thing, the next thing. And we don't always stop and be present. And what I think is the power of events is that often they do make people stop and be present. And you're all in a shared moment, a shared experience, and hopefully people put their phones away from it, and people experience something collectively and together, and that sense of being present and grounded is something that, like, I just think it's really powerful. And so I do try and do that thing where I just stop and look up and look at the stars.
Mel: And then we come to the big one, which is the question we ask everyone at the end of the podcast. With so much advice and so many nuggets you've already given us, I feel greedy, asking for more.
But what's that one piece of advice that's so good or so bad? You'd have to share it.
Charlotte Saynor: So I think I'm not going to quote it in its entirety because I'll probably get it wrong. But the Mark Twain quote about it is, Sail away from the safe harbours and the Explorer. Dream. Discover. I truly believe in that. You've got to step out of your comfort zone. That's where the magic happens. If you stay in the comfort zone, in the safe lane, or in the slow lane, you're not going to experience life in all its glory. So you've got to be brave sometimes, and you take a deep breath and step out there because the payoff is immense if you do.
Max: I couldn't agree more. And we found out that Charlotte is also a sailor as well. But thank you. I mean that there are, to Mel's point, so many lovely bits there and anecdotes and wisdom and things like that. So thank you so much for joining us today and for being open as well. It's been a really, really lovely, informative conversation.
Charlotte Saynor: Thank you so much.
Mel: What I loved about Charlotte's conversation and the opportunity to really speak to her is that it's so rare to get people that have experienced such a career journey with so many big brands, like really pivotal moments actually, through the career, and being able to navigate all of those changes, all of those opportunities, and learn from them, but also the bravery to step away when it's not right for you. And I think so many people are asking, Should I stay? If I stay too long, will I get stale? And that ability of a brand like Apple, which was probably in its absolute heyday to be like, actually, I can go better. I thought that was a really interesting piece. And I'm sure if anyone's listening and is going through some of those things—that sort of insight and those things—I think it's so fascinating to see how that worked for her and the path she's taken.
Max: Yeah, I thought it was a lovely conversation. She is lovely, isn't she, and how open she is with the highs and lows. And obviously, we talk about this quite a bit, but the whole premise of this being curious at all times, I think, is lovely, and it's so important. And actually, a lot of the reason why she's been able to land some of these bigger jobs is because, yes, you need the credibility and capability to back it up, but I think curiosity coupled with
Mel: Initiative.
Max: Initiative—sorry, that's exactly the word initiative. I think it makes for just a really, really strong combination that's obviously seen her through some incredible roles, as you say, but the self-awareness that she's coming, yes, absolutely agrees that there is benefit with time, age, and wisdom. But I think that with the self-awareness to know when something isn't working quite for you, it's okay, and actually sometimes it's even better. And she said they were impressed because no one leaves. And actually, it's like, well, credit to you to know that something isn't right for you. Amazing!
Mel: I think the other piece that I really took away from that conversation was, and you'll know, because it resonated a lot with me, but those challenges that life throws you, I think it's so easy to look at people who are successful and in these big jobs and assume it's all been easy, and have I really had any of those challenges that maybe others have had, and to hear Charlotte talk about the passing of her dad at such a young and such a pivotal age, and while she didn't go into it, in the letter she referenced like other challenges that had come, and the ability to take those challenges, especially the loss of a parent at such a young age, it's something I experienced as well, and being able to use that to fuel you and to try and take the positive from it. That's absolutely not minimising the impact and the difficulty of navigating it, but using that to fuel you, push you forward, and try to take positivity from it. And actually, I can't do the Scottish version now, but look at the stars and those taking the moments and really embracing life, because you do only really get one shot at it. And I think that really feeds into the piece of advice she gives as well. It's like sailing away from those safe harbors. You've got to take risks sometimes, because it's not a dress rehearsal.
Max: Well, and it's testament then to her having set up her own business, running successfully with Rolls Royce and some of these massive global brands, to then actually recognise that after a couple of years of doing it successfully, it isn't necessarily her bag entirely, and under the duress of COVID, then actually, that's a time to go and find an entire new career. And actually, can you go from being self-employed to employable? And what does that shift mean in terms of, often, the kind of leader-to-manager, manager-to-leader, and other things? But I think she was really clear about it in so much as once she'd landed, it was a role that gave her the freedom. And I think it's super insightful. I think it's really, really good chat. And anyone listening, I think will take something away, because there's so many aspects of it that are applicable to different people at different stages in their career, and one that's highlights just how amazing the industry is and the different facets of it really good decision.
Mel: I couldn't agree more.
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